Note for AF from PJ

[PJ]

I would be interested ,AF , on your views regarding the moral indignation from America ,concerning the release of al-Megrahi for the lockerbie plane crash, and the open support for noraid in America, to which Americans donated thousands, if not millions of dollars which resulted in many more hundreds getting maimed and killed.

[supergran]

PJ. I think your post is miss directed.. Maybe Joyous could give her comments.. All those killed by terrorists, funded by Noraid, would appreciate that the died for a noble cause..x

[Auntie Freda]

Actually PJ, you're a bloody pain - because you made this humble Aussie realize how LITTLE he knew about Megrahi or the Noraid stuff.
But from those first News grabs, I was as offended as anyone at the 'tumultuous' reception he received back in Libya.
HOWEVER - being ever mindful that there are two sides to every story, I might be beginning to waver.
And why ? Because I am finding that there is very grave doubt about his GUILT !
MANY members of the victims' families, as well as distinguished jurists, journalists, Scottish politicians, academics and others - believe he was a scapegoat.

Why then, I asked myself, did Libya hand him (and his mate) over - AND pay restitution to the families ???
BECAUSE, it seems, that facilitated the removal of U.S.-led sanctions which were imposing enormous hardship, even deaths, amongst Libyan civilians.
IF any of that is true - one can understand why the sacrificial lamb would be greeted back with such fervour.

To cite all sources would make this post umpteen pages long but I will try to dig out URLS in response to any specific query.


It seems that relevant police notebooks recording the aftermath of the tragedy conveniently went missing.
A principal ID witness was shown photographs of Megrahi prior to picking him out of a bunch of pics - after several attempts - AND was paid mega dollars by the U.S.
The head of the company which made the timer retrieved from the wreckage later recanted and said it was NOT of the type he supplied to Libya.
He claims he was offered $4mill by the FBI to say that it was.
The trial was not heard by a conventional jury - but by a panel of three Scottish judges in the Netherlands.
Defence lawyers reckon that vital documents were withheld from them at the original trial - and this was later conceded by the prosecution.

Megrahi's appeal against his conviction in January 2001 was refused .....
Dr Hans Köchler, one of the UN observers at the trial, expressed serious doubts about the fairness of the proceedings and spoke of a "spectacular miscarriage of justice".

On 28 June 2007, the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission concluded ..."that a miscarriage of justice could have occurred"....

Robert Black QC, the highly respected professor of Scottish law at Edinburgh University : “This was a very, very weak circumstantial case.
I am absolutely astounded, astonished. I was extremely reluctant to believe that any Scottish judge would convict anyone, even a Libyan, on the basis of such evidence.”

Scottish Member of Parliament, Christine Grahame said, "There are a number of vested interests who have been deeply opposed to this appeal continuing as they know it would go a considerable way towards exposing the truth behind Lockerbie....
In the next days, weeks and months new information will be placed in the public domain that will make it clear that Mr Megrahi had nothing to do with the bombing of Pan Am 103."
Tam Dalyell, the former Labour MP for West Lothian has long believed Megrahi is the victim of a catastrophic miscarriage of justice, and has publicly stated that Megrahi is merely a scapegoat.

Martin Cadman, whose son Bill was killed, said "I'm very pleased he has been released on compassionate grounds because I don't think he was the right person to be there anyway. It is just righting a wrong...I think he was innocent and he was not involved."
Doctor Jim Swire, whose 23 year-old daughter Flora was killed in the Lockerbie bombing, said "I don't believe for a moment that this man was involved .... "


Iran was also in the frame very early, with its motive thought to be revenge for the July 1988 shooting down of Iran Air Flight 655 by USS*Vincennes.
A Central Intelligence Agency assessment of the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing concluded that Iran hired a Damascus-based radical Palestinian faction to carry out the operation.

No-one asks how many Americans were convicted after the USS Vincennes brought down Iran Air flight 655 in 1986 with the loss of 290 lives.

[PJ]

LOL, sorry to be a "pain" AF, but being as you enjoy "yank bashing" so much, thought I would amuse myself by makeing a few bullets for you to fire.

[PJ]

The nub of my message, AF , was not so much about the guilt or innocence of the lockerbie bomber, though I personally think there is more than a little doubt as to his guilt, but more about the tidal wave of outrage from the American government , and Americans at large. Where was that self same "outrage" from President Reagan and Bush senior who were quite happy to turn a "blind eye" to the fund raising activities of the I.R.A (noraid) so as not to upset the Irish vote. Where was the disgust from all those who gave so generously to noraid? What did they think that money was being used for if not to buy arms and bombs to kill innocent woman and children? As tragic as the Lockerbie bombing was, it pales into insignificance compared to the loss of life suffered in northern Ireland.

[skxyx101]

I'm sure many/most of the U.S. supporters of the I.R.A. were descendants of Irish immigrants that fled the potato famine of the 1840's. In their minds they were supporting freedom fighters still attempting to throw off the yoke of English domination of a part of their ancestral homeland.
Also the "Outrage from the American government" was for domestic consumption. I'm sure that if the U.S. government had been strongly opposed to the release of Megrahi the pressure to keep him in custody would have been successful, and much less public.
That being said, I believe that keeping Megrahi imprisoned would have been an act of revenge. I was taught that prisons were for the rehabilitation of law breakers or to protect society from habitual criminals. Megrahi is no longer a threat to anyone. Keeping him in jail serves no purpose.

[dawson]

Megrahi was released for compassionate reasons...so where was Megrahi's compassion when he mass-murdered 270 people by blowing PanAm flight 103 out of the sky over Scotland four days before Christmas? The US victim's families expected Megrahi to complete his sentence when he was convicted.

He got his compassionate release when he got life imprisonment and not capital punishment, which Scotland doesn't have. He should have remained in prison, then after his death, his body could have been returned to Libya.

He's going to be going back, even if he has terminal cancer, as a hero and he's going to be received as a hero in Libya. By the way, Prostate cancer, one of the slowest killing cancers, has victims who often experience remission.

Maybe the desire for oil in Libya is driving his release more than "compassion". Could be a sweet deal for the Scots.

[dawson]

LOL...AF, but being as you enjoy "yank bashing" so much, thought I would amuse myself by makeing a few bullets for you to fire.
PJ, you not only tolerate AuntieFreda's bigotry but you provoke it for your own amusement.
I see you doing this often here. What's that say about you?

[Auntie Freda]

Dawson has discovered a new bestest most favourite word - and it has TWO syllables !

IMPRESSIVE !
(but I wonder if He/She means 'begot' or 'begat' ... hmmmm)

.

[Auntie Freda]

... where was Megrahi's compassion when he mass-murdered 270 people by blowing PanAm flight 103 out of the sky ... ?There seems to be grave doubt about that - even amongst victims immediate families who have actively campaigned for his release -
let alone American academics, UN representatives, Scottish politicians, International jurists, investigative journalists etc etc etc
And a whole heap of dodgy "evidence".
But not to worry, guilty or innocent, the clear view of some BIGOTTED Americans is "Hang him up by the scrotum, mate !".

PJ, no doubt that "tidal wave" of outrage in the U.S. can be put down to the same "kill 'em all, innocent or guilty" BIGOTRY - which perverts the thinking of those Americans who gleefully devour every word of only their rabid rightwing media and never THINK of seeking out any alternative views or balanced, impartial reporting.

[dawson]

You're sounding childish now.

[PJ]

I shall treat Anna Dawson's churlish remarks with the contempt wich they deserve.. one piece of information I forgot to mention...the main arms supplier to the I.R.A was.....LIBYA, whats the old saying? goe,s like..what goe,s round , come,s round.

[dawson]

PJ, I guess I pegged your character in post #8. Kinda' has you fidgeting now.

[PJ]

Really! when logical debate fails you, you resort to vulgarity, as is your wont.
You seem to hold your self in more esteem than perhaps is warranted. Please adhere to the subject in question.

[dawson]

Vulgarity? Now you're resorting to lies, PJ. Go ahead, post a quote from me that you say is vulgar. This I gotta' see. You can join Fred who spends his days reading all my discussion and blog comment archives. The best HE could come up with was this in the thread called "Refused":
Originally Posted by dawson
"Hate to bring it up but i'm always intrigued with people who form their own opinions."
Then Fred proudly shares how he found that "atrocity":
"LOL" I just went to "Dawson's" Profile and hit "find dawson's Discussion comments" then picked a page at random (possibly page 8 I think). I'll dig it out again...with the name of the thread and the date and all that stuff.
Holy Senility you two!

[PJ]

"fabricated lies" is contradictory in terms..

[dawson]

Vulgarity? Now you're resorting to lies, PJ. Go ahead, post a quote from me that you say is vulgar. This I gotta' see.
You're right. Thank you for correcting my grammar. Way to dodge the "hotseat" I put you in. You're avoiding the fact that you said I had posted something vulgar and I asked you to quote it here. So put your money where your mouth is...where is it? Anyone can view all of my comments from my profile by clicking on Discussion Comments. I'm waiting, PJ.

I already know there isn't any vulgar comment from me in the whole year I've been here at Overfifties so tell us this...why did you lie?

when logical debate fails you, you resort to vulgarity, as is your wont.

[Auntie Freda]

Well I'm not about to rekindle a pointless war of semantics and point-scoring with Dawson.

If he/she can engage in an intelligent exchange of views - producing rational arguments and providing sources when asked to do so - I'll be there in a flash.

[PJ]

I could,t agree more, my use of the word "vulgar" was as in being "common", or, undignified. To accuse me of lying I find offensive, what possible reason would I have of doing so?

[PJ]

Far be it for me to comment on your usage of the mother tongue, but, there is no such word as "gotta" in the English dictionary.

[PJ]

For some reason this thread , within a few hours, keeps getting relegated to the archives.

[supergran]

Why did the CIA advise their people not to travel on THAT flight..????

[Auntie Freda]

Gran, there is an absolute MOUNTAIN of evidence to suggest that the CIA perverted THE TRIAL and sought from day one to blame Libya - AFTER the event.
HOWEVER, I can find nothing to suggest they had pre-knowledge of the actual bomb or that they told their own staff not to travel on that flight.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=MEG20090825&articleId=14908
The Scotsman - 2006-08-28
" A former Scottish police chief has given lawyers a signed statement claiming that key evidence in the Lockerbie bombing trial was fabricated.
The retired officer has testified that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for the 1989 mass murder of 270 people."http://www.lockerbietruth.com/
"Maltese shopkeeper Toni Gauci was exposed as an unreliable witness by the man who in 1991 indicted Megrahi, former Scottish Lord Advocate Peter Fraser.
And yet the judges trusted Gauci's contradictory and confused evidence, and ignored the fact that Gauci was on a promise of a $4m reward if Al-Megrahi was convicted.
There were later reports of $2m being offered to Gauci in meetings with CIA representatives."

http://www.whale.to/b/lockerbie.html
Lockerbie: CIA witness gagged by US government
A FORMER CIA agent who claims Libya is not responsible for the Lockerbie bombing is being gagged by the US government under state secrecy laws and faces 10 years in prison if he reveals any information about the terrorist attack.

http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1021&Itemid=5
Lockerbie trial was a CIA fix, US intelligence insider claims

[PJ]

Now, this could get interesting...

[supergran]

AF. I refer you to Google.. OH Mynews International news.....