Wake ....up.....america....now!!!!!!!!

[Christmas]

Will we sit here like the "stupids" and be destroyed.

Remember the "Stupids"! They bathed with their clothes on and slept with their feet on the pillows and heads at the foot of the bed (under the cover).

We may be OLD but surely we have learned thru the experience of wars that to sit with our thumbs in our mouths and grunt is a death position.

English by birth; American by choice!

[Christmas]

back to the drawing board.....I WOOL B BACH!

[Christmas]

English by birth; American by choice!

[Christmas]

DID YOU receive the article from the SUN in England news paper about Islam and hate for the free world.

If you did and can do a better job of cut and paste......PLEASE HELP ME OUT

[edith]

Ok Christmas, I'm thoroughly confused now. My screen shows this as the first page, but I can't figure out what's going on. :confused:

[Christmas]

SEND ME AN EMAIL and I will forward the article to you to see what you can do with it.


THANKS

[edith]

Christmas, I just sent you a pm with my email addy in it. :cool:

[Snowden]

Here it is, Chris:

From The Sun (England), by Littlejohn:

IT’S a privilege and a pleasure to write this column. As I’ve often said, it’s what stops me roaming the streets with a Kalashnikov, firing at random.
If even the tiniest fraction of what I write penetrates the thick skulls of the self-righteous imbeciles who run this country, then it may even be worthwhile.

But what about all those of you who don’t have access to such a platform?

What can you do to let off steam, to try to get someone, somewhere, to sit up and take notice?

You can vote every five years or so, if you can be bothered. But as Red Ken once remarked, if voting changed anything, they’d abolish it.

You can write to your MP, but it’s a waste of ink. If you’re really angry, you can write to the Prime Minister or a member of the Cabinet.

But it won’t make the slightest bit of difference. A polite acknowledgement from a junior official is about the best you can hope for.

So today I’m giving over a large chunk of this column to Sun reader Grace Ingram, who has written to us in support of our campaign to get Captain Hook kicked out of the country.

Grace has been on his case almost as long as I have. Her experience is an object lesson in the way the British Government works.

This is her story.

“In September 2002, I wrote to the Home Secretary seeking the removal of this parasite from the UK.

“Having received no response, I sent a reminder and subsequently received a letter dated 25 November from Miss J Davis of the Direct Communications Unit.

“Her letter did not specifically refer to Abu Hamza, who I had written about, but just a general comment on Government policy with regard to terrorism.”

Fair enough. David Blunkett is a busy man. I’m not able to answer personally the thousands of letters and e-mails I receive, either. But I do try to read them all.

Grace continues: “I subsequently wrote back saying she appeared not to understand the point I was making and that I took great exception to a man who said he wanted to kill as many Americans and British as he and others could and that this was Government promoting his right to ‘free speech’.

“I pointed out that my father (now aged 87) fought in World War 2 for free speech but not for the likes of Abu Hamza to come to this country to incite unrest and hatred. Also, one of the questions I asked was the immigration status of Abu Hamza.

“I then received a letter from Olubimpe Dina of the Racist Crime Unit of the Home Office, informing me that they were not able to discuss the immigration status of individuals.

“Why not? I am English and this man is in my country and I feel I (and every other citizen) have the right to know who has or is seeking citizenship of my/our country. I also said that as my taxes were going towards the upkeep of this individual, then it was most certainly my right to know.

“I quote from one part of the letter which you may find interesting: ‘As long as people do not break our laws, they are free to express views with which the Government may profoundly disagree, including criticism of friendly governments’.”

Grace goes on: “I feel Abu Hamza has long since passed these simple sentiments and has done everything he can to recruit young Muslims for a ‘jihad’ against the USA, UK and all coalition governments and his incitement of racial hatred does not sit well with my view of free speech. I pointed out that if I had spoken in a similar vein, I would have been arrested and most likely imprisoned.”

Your feet wouldn’t touch, Grace.

“In January 2003, I received a letter from Sharif Assan San Jose of the Asylum Policy Unit enclosing a fact sheet on asylum policy!”

In desperation, Grace wrote to us.

“Please, my Sun, do everything you can to have this monster removed from our shores without further delay. My husband and I have completed your form in the paper today and asked our friends to do likewise or use your phone poll line.

“As an individual, I have also written to my MP, John Taylor, taken part in a phone-in on Radio WM when this issue first arose and even written to Sir John Stevens, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, asking him to take action. What else can I do?”

Good question, Grace.

I wouldn’t expect the wise monkeys at the Home Office to take any notice of you. But I can’t say I’m surprised that they passed you on to the “Racist Crimes Unit” — whatever that is.

Perhaps they were planning to have you arrested for “hate crime”.

What you must understand is that this Government couldn’t care less what you think about Captain Hook or anything else.

You are nothing but a bloody nuisance as far as they are concerned.

The same goes for the 75,000 who have so far rung our hotline and for all 10million Sun readers.

Those who run this country are more concerned with the rights of terrorists, parasites, paedophiles, criminals, illegal immigrants and assorted lowlife than the rights of the people who pay their wages.

All we can do is keep on kicking them in the hope that something will get through.

We may not always win, but we might just score a direct hit every now and again.

Sometimes I think I’m dancing in the dark. But the joy of receiving your letters is the knowledge that I’m not alone.

I’m here to tell you that you’re not alone, either.

Good on yer, Grace.

[Snowden]

Here's another warning, from NewsMax:

Labor Secretary Chao:
U.N. a Threat to U.S.
Special from NewsMax.com
By Wes Vernon

ARLINGTON, Va. – President Bush's labor secretary warned a gathering of conservatives that Americans must pay more attention to the United Nations and its related organizations, which she noted were chipping away at U.S. sovereignty and threatening freedoms.

Labor Secretary Elaine Chao, making her charges late Thursday at the Conservative Political Action Conference, explained that powerful tax-exempt organizations were applying pressure through the U.N. to have the world body make decisions for Americans' lives without any input from U.S. citizens. [More below]

These efforts are being made without the knowledge of most Americans, she pointed out.

Chao cited a recent case where a labor union complained to the United Nations that the U.S. government was violating international law and international standards on the treatment of government employees.

The idea that tax-exempt U.N. and allied non-government organizations would presume to dictate to Americans how they live, work and conduct themselves on their internal business was a major theme late Thursday at CPAC, not only from Secretary Chao but also from panelists who preceded her.

Foreign Parasites

Tom DeWeese, president of the American Policy Center, charged that the goal of this unholy alliance was to "erase national boundaries," redistribute wealth on an international scale and steer decisions on American affairs from representative government to the "global village," with all of us as "global citizens."

He and another panelist, Jeff Gayner of Americans for Sovereignty, called for the U.S. to get out of the U.N. and to force the U.N. to get out of the U.S.

Secretary Chao cited not only labor organizations but also groups in other areas of concern, such as Environmental Policy Institute and self-described human rights groups that have used their tax-exempt status to try to bring the U.S. into line with their worldview, without a single American vote being cast or even an awareness on the part of most U.S citizens.

The long list of accredited left-of-center NGOs, she said, have become “key players in laying the groundwork for international law” and, she fears, “one day, the U.S. will be pressured to adopt” the globalist agenda without a single vote being cast.

Social Engineering

The internationalist-minded NGOs, the secretary observed, are encouraging the U.N. and its offshoot agencies to pressure the United States into policies mandating “gender neutrality” and “reallocating defense expenditures for other” left-favored causes.

“Conservatives who ignore the U.N. do so at their peril,” Chao declared.

DeWeese said the international tentacles of the NGOs reached down to local governments around the country. He said they were working with city and county governments to use familiar programs to forge ahead with such ideas as “sustainable development,” and “smart growth,” euphemisms, he said, for pressuring us out of the wide-open suburbs and into crowded cities. These policies also make housing more expensive, though liberal politicians constantly bemoan the lack of “affordable housing,” a shortage they have abetted.

“If you love liberty,” the American Policy Center president told CPAC, “sustainable development is your enemy.”

The job-killing, China-boosting Kyoto “global warming” treaty and the International Criminal Court, both rejected by President Bush, are just the tip of the iceberg, DeWeese warned.

“Few Americans are aware of what is going on,” he noted.

It goes to the philosophy of these particular NGOs that all living creatures are the same, perhaps crowing humans together in cities, with the animals looking in.

Gayner said Americans would have to use the same mantra with international planners and their NGOs that former first lady Nancy Reagan used with the drug culture: “Just say no.”

“The World Court and the International Criminal Court are building blocks to the control of the American people,” he said.

He praised President Bush for his State of the Union statement that the U.S. did not need a permission slip from foreigners to defend its own interests. Moreover, he cited polls showing near unanimity among the American people in agreement with that. Yet the pressure for world governance continues unabated.

Gayner urged support for a proposal by Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, to end U.S. membership in the United Nations.

The Enemy on U.S. Soil

Panelist Tom Kilgannon of Oliver North’s Freedom Alliance noted that U.N. Secretary General Kofi Anan lives “like a king” at the U.N., where “Castro is a hero and George W. Bush is reviled or barely tolerated.”

“Kofi Anan is no friend of the American people, and the U.N. is no ally of the Untied States,” he declared.

Secretary Chao said she was encouraged that such pro-American groups as the Heritage Foundation and the American Conservative Union had persisted in their efforts, against heavy resistance, to obtain accreditation as observers of the U.N. General Assembly.

[Christmas]

HAVE AN IMPORTANT JOB FOR A PATRIOT........YOU!

give me a summary of the DeWeese post....list the good guys and their basis directives

list the bad guys who want to enslave us and who they are and their basis ideology

I will go to Ask Jeeves and get addresses and Paul Revere will get on her horse and ride.......

On the eighteenth of April in 75 hardily a man is still alive that remembers that fame day and year of the midnight ride of Paul Revere.

[Snowden]

Well......... sorta, Chris. Goes more like this:

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow -

Listen, my children, and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,--
One, if by land, and two, if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm
For the country folk to be up and to arm,"

Then he said, "Good night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend, through alley and street,
Wanders and watches with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry-chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,--
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town,
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night-encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,--
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide, like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse's side,
Now gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle-girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry-tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns!

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet:
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.
He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders, that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the cock,
And the barking of the farmer's dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, blank and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadows brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket-ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read,
How the British Regulars fired and fled,--
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farm-yard wall,
Chasing the red-coats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,--
A cry of defiance and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo forevermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

[Christmas]

MY memory for poetry is kinda along the line of my memory for spelling.......it comes and goes.........I get flashes of patches of stuff.

[Snowden]

So do I, Chris. I cheated here - went to Google. :D

When memory fails, hail Google!

[Snowden]

Here's a wake-up call; this is happening in England, where guns have been taken from the law-abiding citizens. I just love that Second Amendment to our Constitution! Jail may be a deterrant, but nothing works as well as being able (and allowed) to defend one's own home and family.

-------

From The Telegraph:

Tough on crime? Ha!
(Filed: 25/01/2004)

'The gentleness of the English civilisation is perhaps its most marked characteristic," wrote George Orwell in his classic wartime book, The Lion and the Unicorn. How depressingly anachronistic that remark seems today. Last week the Home Office revealed that violent crime had increased by 14 per cent in the third quarter of 2003, compared with 2002. The rises for the most serious offences, including murder, were even more dramatic, up by 18 per cent.

Labour politicians and the police tried to dismiss these figures as a statistical blip, claiming that they are due to nothing more than changes in methodology and more vigilant reporting by the public. This, however, is profoundly unconvincing. As everyone but the most blinkered bureaucrat knows, the reality is that our streets are more dangerous than ever before. According to one recent study, Britain is now a more violent country than any other in Europe and north America.

This sense of anarchy is only heightened by the outlook of the police and courts, who seem determined to criminalise the respectable majority of the public rather than to deal effectively with the people who are in fact criminals. The reluctance of the police and Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) to allow property owners to defend their own homes; their treatment of those who do defend themselves as worse than the thugs who break into houses to steal property; the obsession with speed cameras and minor motoring offences; the relentless prosecution of teachers who attempt to discipline violent pupils - all are symptoms of the way civilised values have been inverted.

In another illustration of this state of affairs, figures published last week showed that motorists who commit an offence are actually more likely than burglars to receive a prison sentence. In 2002, 10,178 burglars went to jail, compared with 15,039 motorists. Two-thirds of motorists were incarcerated for minor offences such as a non-payment of fines or careless driving.

For the Labour Government, it was not meant to be like this. Tony Blair came to power in 1997 promising that his government would be "tough on crime". But instead of the promised rigorous action against criminality, we have merely had Labour's speciality: slogans, gimmicks and more bureaucrats.

It would, however, be unfair to pin all the blame on the Government. Labour's failure reflects a much deeper malaise in the British criminal justice system. The truth is that many of the officials who are charged with enforcing the law reject the whole idea of punishing offenders in order to protect the public. Many of them frankly admit that they see criminals as the victims of society who deserve help rather than punishment. In this context, violence and theft are regarded not as brutal attacks on individuals but as much wider symptoms of "social exclusion" - to use the jargon beloved of the criminal policy-makers.

Many of those who are supposed to ensure that burglars, thieves and robbers are punished do not seem to recognise that stealing is a serious crime. Rather, they cling to the sub-Marxist belief that "property is theft", and think that the answer to "anti-social behaviour" lies in expanding education and handing out higher welfare payments to criminals. This was the view that shone through a BBC Newsnight discussion last week about the problem of vicious hooligans terrorising housing estates. Louise Casey, the head of the Downing Street Anti-Social Behaviour Unit, simply called for more training and "support" for violent teenagers. She pointedly avoided advocating the one measure which might actually teach teenage thugs a lesson: incarceration.

The backgrounds of many of the leading figures within the justice system encourage the view that they believe the best way to tackle crime is to be nicer to criminals. The Inspector of Prisons, Anne Owers, for instance, was previously the head of the radical human rights group Justice. The new Director of Public Prosecutions, Ken Macdonald QC, was until recently a barrister in Matrix, a Left-wing chambers famous for its single-minded pursuit of human rights cases.

The chairman of the Metropolitan Police Authority is Lord Harris, the former leader of the notoriously Left-wing Haringey council, while the head of the new Independent Police Complaints Commision is Nick Hardwick, a former director of the Refugee Council. The Youth Justice Board - notorious for its soft approach towards the sentencing of young offenders - is packed with people such as Rob Allen, the former director of research of the anti-prison pressure group Nacro (National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders).

The leader of the Conservative Party, Michael Howard, was roundly denounced by the liberal "experts" for his famous utterance as Home Secretary that "prison works". But as a wave of criminality washes across Britain, the wisdom of that statement is becoming ever more apparent.

The URL for this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/01/25/dl2501.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/01/25/ixopinion.html)

[Christmas]

That is one of my favorite programs on television since it has brought to my knowledge how the justice system is now in motion and how much needs to be done for revamping it.

Last night there was a program about a child who was involved in a crime and the truth was he should have been shown some leniency because he had some redeemable character but the kid who was a sociopath and evil in intent was given a slap on the hand because the LAW had to be followed even though the outcome of the trial was not justice.

The twelve year old kid who had committed the murder (and rape of the dead woman) walked and the kid who was the bystander got life....... It didn't make sense.


I was called for jury duty and released because I did not agree with a similar law.

The defendant committed a car jacking threatening the life of the car owner. What it all boiled down too when the lawyers were evaluating the jury was ......you could not have a verdict of guilty unless there was proof he would have pulled the trigger.

I told the judge when he questioned me or told me how the law was set up that I DID NOT AGREE. You see the car jacker could not be held for the car jacking unless the other could be proved.

He dismissed me and told me I would make a good civil court jury person but not a good criminal court one.

AGAIN, I am glad I am old and will get off this planet before too long.......injustice to the degree it is happening gives me heartburn and indigestion to say the least.

[Quentin]

Christmas, I hate to disappoint you. However "Law and Order" is fiction and mostly propaganda. In real life a large majority of those accused of crimes and the police who arrest them come from the same socio-economic background. And police often lie in court just like everyone else but when they do it is often called "massaging the facts." Get real.

Don't get me wrong, we have a lot o scum bags out there committing crimes but the police should be held to a higher duty.

I hope I didn't hurt your feelings but that 's the way life is in the big cities and small towns as well.

[Christmas]

No, Quentin,,,,,,not at all .........I never look for offense....and while I may not agree with persons, I rarely ever get tied up in a knot over words; specially not over words when you can not see the person saying them.

I know LAW and ORDER is fiction but it does open one's eyes to things that happen in the within the justice system that the average citzen is not aware of. It is also interesting to see the technology used to prove crime. I watch the forensic, court, justice offerings.

It is amazing the things that can not be done to find a criminal or solve a crime that happened wayyyyyy back when.

Perhaps the methods are not yet widespread because a lot is so new however in watching these programs it makes me HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY that I am one of the folk not being investigated.

I have had dealing thru out my life of 65 years which involved courts, lawyers, judges, government, prisons, prisoners, wardens, and so on, so I am not totally at a loss as to the world's realities.

If I didn't believe that the guys in the white hats would come on top at the end, I would be very discouraged. Understand, that I know right doesn't always win in the world as we live it ...then, now and in the future.....but when the END-END is come......RIGHT WILL PREVAIL.

Betcha a dime to a donut.

[Quentin]

Christmas, thanks for your kind response. I have no doubt you have good heart. I can sense it in your posts. And I appreciate that. Moreover I feel as you do that RIGHT WILL PREVAIL. But it needs a push forward now and then because there are many out there in public life, in particular, who do not have good hearts and attempt to deceive and obfuscate. Propaganda and fear is peddled daily as you well know.

[Christmas]

I didn't read all those quotes.......there are "generally" and close to "all" the time, downers about THE LAND I LOVE.

But, I caught the last quote by the Gal-a-whoever (you know I can't spell) and for an old guy he is sharp!

Glad to see you up and about.......sun is shining....ain't raining inside but it is so cold the dogs water has a sheet of ice over it.

Greenjeans bought a dog house heating pad so they would have a warm shelter.......since the new puppies (4) we now have nine yorkie terriers........DOGS FOR SALE, DOGS FOR SALE!!!!!!

[Quentin]

From Keith's post immediately above:

"America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." (John O'Hara)."

Keith, you may recall John O'Hara wrote "Appointment in Samarra." That is one appointment we will all keep.

As akways, thanks for your post.

[Quentin]

From Keith's post immediately above:

"America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." (John O'Hara)."

Keith, you may recall John O'Hara wrote "Appointment in Samarra." That is one appointment we will all keep.

As always, thanks for your post.

[edith]

Originally posted by Keith
It is the fundamental theory of all the more recent American law...that the average citizen is half-witted, and hence not to be trusted to either his own devices or his own thoughts: -H.L. Mencken
That does appear to be what the liberals think with their overreaching laws that control, or try to, our every movement. The blind pc movement is a good example.

A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense: than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual doom: Martin Luther King Jr., "The Trumpet of Conscience", 1967
More of your transparent tactics again, Keith -- selective quotes that give half the story and misrepresent the truth. It neglects to mention we give out more foreign aid around the world that anyone else. We are the first called when there are severe disasters and we always respond. Our level of poverty is very high and our poor own cars, tvs, have cable, vcr's, cell phones etc.


All men having power ought to be mistrusted: -James Madison
Of course


There's so many things going on in the world, Babies dying. Mothers crying. How much oil is one human life worth. And what ever happened to peace on earth: Willie Nelson
Good question. Ask the Husseins, Arafats and terrorists around the world where it is.

Willy should be directing his questions to the countries which received billions in tax credits from Iraq . They were among the ones opposing the war and all the time babies were dying and mothers were crying in Iraq. The mass graves are filled with the victims.


"Over grown military establishments are, under any form of government, inauspicious to liberty, and are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty." (George Washington)
And the point is?


A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but won't cross the street to vote in a national election: Bill Vaughan
So? It's called freedom. Look at elections in the former Communist countries and what a farce they were when held. Look at the last election in Iraq where SH was the only candidate and got 100% of the vote. You point in this is ....?


"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country."-- Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, D.C.
Crack addict Democrat caught red handed. Good with welfare programs so he got reelected. And your point is....??


The statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception. Mark Twain, "The Mysterious Stranger" (1910)
Something tells me you'd be quoting this against the people who fought Hitler.


"America may be unique in being a country which has leapt from barbarism to decadence without touching civilization." (John O'Hara)
Typical Keith. You really hate us don't you? According to you, there is nothing right about us and everything is wrong. Good thing we don't give a darn what you think Keith.


To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt: (1918)
That was then, and it sure ain't happening here now. People are free to criticize the government all they want. The problem is that the Libs forget that there is freedom of speech to defend the President. Their typical tactics are to mock the defenders since they can't shut us up.

Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper." (Larry Flynt)
That doesn't happen here because we have the Bill of Rights. You might look to some of the dictatorships around the world where the people have no rights.

Nice try, Keith. Did it take you a long time to find these?

[Christmas]

edith!!!!!!!!!EDITH!!!!!!!!!!!


I can ALWAYS depend on you to ....hannnnell it!!!!!! as the old mayor told the sherriff in CARTER COUNTRY.


It hurts my brain finding rebuttals trying to keep up with the green mess left slimily sliding down the monitor screen.

YOU SAVE THE DAY.........remember "Mighty Mouse" .......you are Mighty Mouse on the waaaaay!

I read the green stuff and sigh....

I read your post and my face breaks out in a grin and it lifts the spirits high as you TELL THE TRUTH.

TRUTH is ALWAYS THE WINNER!!!!!

[Snowden]

By Christmas: It hurts my brain finding rebuttals trying to keep up with the green mess left slimily sliding down the monitor screen.

YOU SAVE THE DAY.........remember "Mighty Mouse" .......you are Mighty Mouse on the waaaaay!

I read the green stuff and sigh....

I read your post and my face breaks out in a grin and it lifts the spirits high as you TELL THE TRUTH.

TRUTH is ALWAYS THE WINNER!!!!!


Ah, Chris - you do have a way with words! I love her too.

Edith shoots from the hip and never misses the target!

Keith keeps beating the same old drum; he hasn't noticed that it's hollow and even the ends are gone. Only his toady agrees with him - and how can he see clearly with such a big brown nose?

[Quentin]

Edith, you frequently use the word "liberal" as a noun (for example, where you say above to Keith "That does appear to be what the liberal(s) think......... .)"

Please tell me what "liberal", as a noun, means as you typically use it in Discussions?

BTW: My Webster's New World Dictionary doesn't have "liberal" as a noun in it; only as an adjective. Nor does my New Oxford-American Dictionary (2000).

[edith]

Thanks Christmas and Snowden for the kind words. What mental pictures I'm taking away with me -- green stuff sliding down my screen and big brown nosed toads. :eek:

[Joyous]

Feb. 2, 2004 / 10 Shevat, 5764 - Jewish World Review
Bill O'Reilly










Enslaving kids





http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | Even after the mass murders on September 11, 2001, some people still have troubling accepting the fact that evil is a formidable presence in this world. This column will break down that resistance. There are hundreds of thousands of children the world over who are being sold into sexual slavery, and little is being done about it, even by the United States government.


I first encountered this story in 1991 when I traveled to Thailand and bought an 11-year-old girl for less than $200. The negotiation was captured on tape and reported on the program I was then anchoring, "Inside Edition." On the streets of Bangkok, thousands of young children are sold into prostitution. The pimps and brothel owners bribe police, and evil parents gave up their offspring for a pittance.


The New York Times Sunday Magazine recently provided an update on this story and, according to its reporter, the sex slavery industry is now firmly embedded in the USA. In many cases, the children are smuggled here through Mexico, where it is easy to bribe authorities. Once the border is reached, the children are shepherded across, and vans take them to cities like Los Angeles and Chicago. Of course, crossing the border is easy, as our federal government will not secure it.

[Joyous]

Some of these child sex slaves are Mexicans, but some come from other poor countries. Sex traffickers funnel them into Mexico and introduce them to prostitution using threats of violence and mayhem. You can imagine the fear and pain of a child in this situation. It is unspeakable.


The rise of the Internet has spurred the child sex slave industry. Kiddie porn is big business, and pictures of horribly abused kids can now be accessed by anyone with software. When evil and technology merge, the situation becomes catastrophic.


Enter the American justice system. Shamefully, in some cases, it is doing everything it can to "protect" people who brutalize and enslave children:





Item: The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is representing the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) pro bono in a Massachusetts case.


Item: Federal judge Dennis Chin denied the FBI a warrant in the notorious "Candyman" Internet sting case. The feds busted a child porn Web site and secured the names of Americans who did business with it. They then asked various judges for warrants to search the homes and computers of said individuals. Chin said no because he believed one could do business with child pornographers and not commit a criminal act.


Item: An American named Jorge Pabon Cruz distributed more than 8,000 pictures of children being raped, sexually abused and brutalized during a three-month period in 2001. Pabon Cruz advertised his sick site on other Web sites, one of which was named "childrape." Pabon Cruz trafficked in the vilest images imaginable, including pictures of infants being raped.


In October 2002, this monster was convicted of advertising for the receipt, exchange and distribution of child pornography and sentenced to 10 years in a federal prison. That was a mandatory sentence approved by a vote of Congress.


But the presiding federal judge in New York City, Gerard Lynch, publicly objected to the sentence, saying he would have given Pabon Cruz just five years. Lynch, who was appointed by President Clinton, as was Chin, made a big deal of this. Talk about sympathy for the devil!


So recapping, Judges Chin and Lynch witnessed the vilest acts adults can do to children short of murder. Yet these judges did not fully cooperate with a system trying to harshly punish the adults involved -- adults who are literally destroying the lives of defenseless children.


Add to that the incredible actions of the ACLU, which apparently believes an organization devoted solely to encouraging pedophilia and legalizing sex between children and adults is entitled to a free defense.


So the logical question is: Aren't these judges and this so-called "civil liberties" organization enabling evil? To me the answer is obvious. Evil cannot exist without human involvement and cooperation. And there's plenty of that going around.

Am I the only person ready to topple the ACLU?

[edith]

Originally posted by Joyous
Enter the American justice system. Shamefully, in some cases, it is doing everything it can to "protect" people who brutalize and enslave children...

Add to that the incredible actions of the ACLU, which apparently believes an organization devoted solely to encouraging pedophilia and legalizing sex between children and adults is entitled to a free defense...

So the logical question is: Aren't these judges and this so-called "civil liberties" organization enabling evil? To me the answer is obvious. Evil cannot exist without human involvement and cooperation. And there's plenty of that going around.
There's growing disgust that the our laws protect perverts and allow them to operate freely here.

The sex slavery trade is growing around the world and is being highlighted during the International Women's Day. The US Protection Project estimates two million women and children are sold into the sex trade every year. There are attempts to protect victims and offer permanent residency to victims who testify in the US and various countries in Europe.

Just a few examples of how widespread are:
Up to 120,000 women are smuggled into western Europe, mainly from central and eastern Europe, and forced into prostitution.

It says more than 15,000 women are trafficked into the United States every year, many of them young girls from Mexico.

Almost 200,000 girls from Nepal, many of them under the age of 14, are working as sex slaves in India.

The Thai government reports that 60,000 Thai children have been sold into prostitution.

As many as 10,000 children aged between six and 14 are virtually enslaved in brothels in Sri Lanka.

The project also says that of 155 cases of forced prostitution brought before the courts in The Netherlands where prostitution is legal, only four resulted in convictions of the traffickers.

In the Pacific, International experts on sexual exploitation say that in Australia it is believed there are more than 1000 victims. They believe that the problem is underground and the extent is unknown at this time.

Slavery has long been in existence in the Arabian Peninsula. Oil wealth has allowed the purchase of slaves, originally mainly from Africa, to be "spread" around the world. The Saud families hands are stained. There, in order to avoid conflict with religious tenets, the child sex slaves are dehumanized and called w*ores.

Don't publish your children's/grandchildren's pictures on the net because Saudi princes have been known to "special order" children through pictures in the media. Children thus selected have been kidnapped in front of their homes, coming from school or at a store with their parents in this country and on their way to Saudi Arabia before the police get organized.

[Christmas]

It is a miracle that this world still rotates on it's axis.

This world's population fumble rumps around doing the most rotten assinine stunts.

It would be so wonderful to fly faster than a speeding bullet over this planet using x-ray eyes to ferret out the gunk and gore and to pour clorax on them.

Clorax will even kill the aids virus.

[Quentin]

Christmas, if you were running things and had the power, what would be the first few things you would change? And change them to what? Remember this: many have sallied forth to kill a monster and became the monster they slayed.

[Christmas]

Quentin, running things under what authority....political such as the US President, A dictator, Superman with super powers?

I know one thing I DO NOT WANT......and that is responsibility without authority.


I await your reply before I go into a deep meditative state, VBG

[Snowden]

My oldest son sent an article about the kids being sold into sex slavery, Joyous. It made me so sick I couldn't send it around. Very explicit; amazing what people do to other people and especially to children. You almost feel like attaching them to a leash and never letting them out of your sight.

Mostly poor countries, and of course many kidnapped right here in the US, and never seen again. Even when the kids grow up they don't know what else to do - most families of those who were sold won't take them back.

Chris, if we had the strength, with or without authority, I'd like to find a way to help those kids.

Quentin, gone about correctly, monsters can be destroyed. But it really does take the authority; Chris is right about that. Your comment is true all too often. But we should be fighting that monster anyway and any way we can.

I don't know how though.

[Christmas]

IF THIS COMES THRU

here is the opportunity for those who have some values and SOME CLASS to go forth and be heard.

Did Top CBS Officials Approve Exposure of Janet Jackson's Breast During Superbowl Halftime Show?

Statement from Traditional Values Coalition Executive Director Andrea Lafferty to Sunday's Superbowl Scandal Involving Janet Jackson

Washington, D.C.

"The Traditional Values Coalition is angered but not surprised at the antics of Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake during the Superbowl half-time program.

"Despite the apologies from the NFL, CBS, and MTV over the exposure of Miss Jackson's breast during the half-time show, Internet commentator Matt Drudge is now reporting that his sources say that top officials at CBS approved of the exposure of her breast as part of the show. Timberlake even sang, "I'll get you naked before the end of this song" before ripping off her top-exposing her breast with a solar medallion attached to it.

"If the Drudge Report turns out to be true, we believe that heads should roll at CBS for exposing millions of children to the pornographic antics of Jackson and Timberlake.

"The Superbowl is supposed to be a family affair, not a peep show or an MTV music video featuring half-naked women engaging in mock sex acts with their male partners.

"The Superbowl is an American institution and should be a safe show for families to watch. The American people have been betrayed by CBS, MTV, and by the NFL.

"What rock does the NFL leadership live under? Didn't they know that MTV would produce a sleazy show?

"Clearly, the NFL fumbled the ball by allowing MTV to produce the half-time program. MTV is well known for promoting what amounts to soft-core pornography for its youthful viewers. The NFL now claims it will not use MTV in the future for its half-time productions, the damage has been done.

"The Jackson family sexual problems apparently extend to Janet Jackson who seems to suffer from exhibitionist tendencies. Her sick desire to expose her breast to millions of viewers is evidence of a strange sexual dysfunction.

"Janet Jackson's exhibitionism was not the only obscene part of the half-time show. We were also exposed to simulated lesbian sex, crotch grabbing by P. Diddy, and gyrating transvestites. MTV's half-time show would have played well in an S&M strip bar-not on national TV during a sporting event seen around the world.

"Justin Timberlake is equally guilty in his attempt to compete with Britney Spears for outrageous behavior on TV.

"The great tragedy is that millions of unsuspecting children were exposed to this obscene act. More than apologies are needed from CBS, MTV, and the NFL leadership."




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Call Them, THEN Email Them As Well!!

CONTACT INFORMATION:

CBS: President Leslie Moonves, 323-575-2345
Email: CBS INFO? - FEEDBACK FORM.

MTV: Chairman Tom Freston, 212-258-8000;
Email: MTV.com - News - Youtellus

VIACOM: (owns CBS and MTV): CEO Sumner Redstone, 212-975-3247
Email: info@viacom.com

NFL: Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, National Football League, 280 Park Avenue, New York, NY 10017; Email: SBComments@NFL.com; 212-450-2000; Fax: 212-681-7599.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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OKAY......it worked

Now, I am off to do what I can do. And, I can DO MANY THINGS including cutting out purchases and letting the companies be aware of the cutting who advertised yesterday.......PEPSI, and I just bought their drinks...24 of them...grrrrrrr, FORD, DODGE, BUD LITE and so on.

Refusing to allow the SUPER BOWL back into my house if not assured that in the future perverts will not be on the stage.

I have five boy grands and I know I don't want them to think that they are main stream America.

That Jackson piece of trash is on the same road to perdition as Jacko the crotch grabber.

[Quentin]

Christmas in response to my post you said:

"Quentin, running things under what authority....political such as the US President, A dictator, Superman with super powers?"

Chose which form of government you would like if you were running things; that is, anything you want.

Regarding the television production of the Super Bowl: Only the naive doesn't know we are the most decadent society that ever inhabited this planet. Television is full of sex because that is what we like, and it sells. We are voyeurs. If we didn't like it we wouldn't watch it. You do know there an "off" button on the set. Or better yet, if there are a few still aroung who are not voyeurs they can avoid seeing the sex and violence -- by the way violence is why we like to watch football so much -- by not having the set in the house in the first instance.

As for me, I thought the dance was mild compared to the violence in Iraq. All because of Bush's lies. But we don't care.

[Script]

"The great tragedy is that millions of unsuspecting children were exposed to this obscene act."

It's hard to get too upset by this show biz nonsense. Whenever did we expect the entertainment empire to be an arbiter of good taste?It deserves a reprimand, certainly...but

" A great tragedy"? No.

Children being exposed to poverty, ignorance and violence is much more obscene and of much greater concern and deserving of public outrage and petitions .

[Joyous]

Quote by Quentin,
As for me, I thought the dance was mild compared to the violence in Iraq. All because of Bush's lies. But we don't care.

All because of Bush's lies? Think back to the previous administration. Same CIA, same search fro WMD, so why are you laying it all at Bush's doorstep? Bottom line-Iraq lost the 1991 war, promised to allow weapons search, never played out their end of the pact. This is only one point. So get real about Bush's lies. Where on earth were youwhen Clinton was in the white house?

[edith]

Originally posted by Quentin
Only the naive doesn't know we are the most decadent society that ever inhabited this planet. Television is full of sex because that is what we like, and it sells. We are voyeurs. If we didn't like it we wouldn't watch it. You do know there an "off" button on the set.
Europe is much more "advanced" than we are. They have much more to "offer" than we do. Some may say they are more enlightened. We don't have that label, much as you would like to pin it on us.


by the way violence is why we like to watch football so much -- by not having the set in the house in the first instance.
Simplistic statement. What backs it up?

Soccer appears to be much more violent, especially the spectators. Riots abound after games around the world.

[edith]

Originally posted by Script
It's hard to get too upset by this show biz nonsense. Whenever did we expect the entertainment empire to be an arbiter of good taste?It deserves a reprimand, certainly...but

" A great tragedy"? No.
I missed it all. Went shopping with friends.

I think part of the problem is that millions of families around the country get together to watch this every year -- that includes the children. A big mistake was made by not taking the audience into consideration when planning the half time entertainment.

Another thing is that "celebrities" are scorned now by average Americans and this only adds fuel to that fire.

Children being exposed to poverty, ignorance and violence is much more obscene and of much greater concern and deserving of public outrage and petitions . [/B]
Much higher on the list of priorities, I agree. However, parents also wish to protect their children from what they consider to be sleeze. This was put on tv during what is considered to be family hours. A big enough uproar will insure it doesn't happen again.

I worry that outrage will not continue on to the items you listed.

[edith]

All because of Bush's lies? Think back to the previous administration. Same CIA, same search fro WMD, so why are you laying it all at Bush's doorstep? Bottom line-Iraq lost the 1991 war, promised to allow weapons search, never played out their end of the pact. This is only one point. So get real about Bush's lies. Where on earth were you when Clinton was in the white house?
Selective outrage, Joyous

[Christmas]

I find it easier to respond to something such as the rounch displayed on tv NFL half-time, when the address and names are provided. I don't have to hunt and peck in order to go to the head of the jackass rather than the tale to be heard.

I provided the information for those of real interest in the state of the nation's children so that they know that is not condoned behavior.

I was fortunate in that I do not watch football unless it is a game my husband wants me to share with him. I have seen a few I actually enjoyed back when my son was playing and a few non son games starring archie manning. He was marvelous in finding the right openings at the most interesting times ....sometimes it was just amazing what he could go thru, over, under to get to the goal.

My husband and son and grandsons were there in the den Saturday reporting the event.....and of course different men at work had comments to make.

I raised my grandson from 3 to 14. His father didn't decide to come back into his life until he was about nine. He began to go stay with him on weekends some time later...maybe 10 or 12.


His father thought anything goes and saw nothing wrong with having x rated trash available for Ben to watch.

You know there was no such at my place. Of course, we watched a lot of Disney, etc. And my children and grandchildren were taught the values I was.

I know things are learned outside the home.....I did as a young girl....stuff written on walls in bathrooms......some kids who had had no "caring" upbringing....the kind that brought filthy pictures to school.....(I TOLD ON THEM AFTER I HAD WARNED THEM TO TAKE THEM BACK HOME and they didn't listen.)

Well, I was taught that trash in, trash out and to accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative and to look out for Mr. Inbetween.

When Ben came home from one trip to his Dad's we were watching television and the show became too adult and the language trashy.....I said, "Ben, turn that off." Ben replied, "Ahhhhh grandmaw, I see that all the time at Dad's."

My response was......I have no control over your Dad but I do over what goes on in my house.....turn it off.....that is not acceptable in this home.

It is the responsibility of adults to guide their children and to do this effectively you have to walk the walk as well as talk it.

Like I said....I provided the info and those that want to take advantage can and those that prefer to let their children down can do that as well. After all, it takes more effort to do right than to just talk about wrong. I am a DOER.

I was rewarded by my grandson when he turned eighteen and in a discussion we had he told me I am the only person he really trusts... IT THRILLED ME. I didn't know he felt that way.

I care about my family and for the kids of the families who are too busy or disinterested or involved in Jackson type behavior to provide them with structure.....postive structure.

NOW........I think you have lost interest in what I would do about changing things....or you would have been more specific.

I can say.....I believe in Tough Love, Truth, Justice and having the guts to stand up for them regardless of who doesn't.

[Quentin]

script posted this in response to Christmas' post complaining of Janet Jackson's dance act giving the boys who watch football a brief glimpse of her right breast:

"Children being exposed to poverty, ignorance and violence is much more obscene and of much greater concern and deserving of public outrage and petitions."

script, no doubt. However I doubt you will be able to sell that view in here. I appreciate your attempt.

[Christmas]

I agree with script about the problems he mentioned but that does not take away from the fact there is more than one thing that needs addressing.

This one person feels better when an opportunity opens itself to giving the means to do at least one thing for good.

I would think, not being superman, superwoman, etc. that one would have to take advantage of the things that can be done within that persons realm.

A person's FIRST responsibility starts at home. If this is taken care of the family and children both have a better than average chance for success in their world.

I do what I can do in my world. I make a difference (even if it is small).

[Quentin]

Awwh, don't worry about answering. It's not important to me.

I must say I like your attitude about controlling your own television set. If more parents and grandparents did that instead of permitting the tv to be on so much and sent the children to their respective room to study, the children would be better students and the world would be better for it.

[Christmas]

YOU KNOW I can't spell but this is the guy who fought the windmills.

Any hooo as Ed Sullivan said many times......

I have fought til I am winded this a.m.

I called all the folks involved with the sleaze on Sunday.


As to the NFL.......I was offered the opportunity to tell them my thoughts. The "recording" did say that it is doubtful...note doubtful that MTV will be used again. I don't think "doubtful" was a very smart word.

I left my message....not ranting, but informing the NFL that WE were not pleased with their taste and another showing of that caliber and there would be no more NFL here.

I also said I had a list of the people who advertised on the show and I was taking that into consideration as well.

I was invited to put it in writing and to use this email address.......sbcomments@nfl.com and of course I am going to do just that.

[edith]

[i]Originally posted by Quentin:
If more parents and grandparents did that instead of permitting the tv to be on so much and sent the children to their respective room to study, the children would be better students and the world would be better for it.
Sounds like what Chistmas has been doing it all along. She's also exercising her rights as a free woman and citizen to let her displeasure known.

Democracy in action. :D

[edith]

[i]Originally posted by Keith:
Storm in a C- cup
( or minus a C- cup ? )

Haven't actually seen the source of all this outrage.
"Superbowl" is not exactly big news here.
Democracy in action Keith....doesn't need your approval.

[Quentin]

Texas Mating Spiders

A father watched his daughter playing in the garden.
He smiled as he reflected on how sweet and innocent
his little girl was. Suddenly she just stopped and
stared at the ground. He went over to her and noticed
she was looking at two spiders mating.

"Daddy, what are those two spiders doing?" she asked.
"They're mating," her father replied.
"What do you call the spider on top, Daddy?" she
asked. "That's a Daddy Longlegs," her father answered.
"So, the other one is Mommy Longlegs?" the little girl
asked. "No," her father replied. "Both of
them are Daddy Longlegs."

The little girl thought for a moment, then she stomped
them flat and said "Well, it might be okay in
California, Vermont, and New York, but we're not
having any of that sh-t in Texas.

[Christmas]

I rides a slow horse, Quentin.

You will have to explain that one in first grader terms.




MEANWHILE......us Tennesseans are off to kill a barrr!

[edith]

I didn't know where to put this. Hope it's ok here. I got it in an email.

The following appeared in the Durham, NC local paper as a letter to the editor.

Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war. They complain about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S. history.
_
Let's clear up one point: We didn't start the war on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists_BEFORE 9/11.
_
Let's look at the "worst" president and mismanagement claims.
_
FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
_
Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.
_
John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us. Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
_
Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
_
In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 30 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home.
_
Worst president in history? Come on!

[Joyous]

Hmmmmmm....
> Ironic? I think not.
> This one is quite on the mark.
>
> THINK ABOUT THIS!
>
> A car company can move its factories
> to Mexico and claim it's a free market.
>
> A toy company can out source to a Chinese subcontractor
> and claim it's a free market.
>
> A major bank can incorporate in
> Bermuda to avoid taxes and claim
> it's a free market.
>
> We can buy HP Printers made in Mexico.
> We can buy shirts made in Bangladesh.
>
> When I need to speak to someone
> about my computer, I talk to some-
> body in India.
>
> We can purchase almost anything we
> want from 20 different countries
>
> BUT, heaven help the elderly who
> dare to buy their prescription
> drugs from a Canadian pharmacy.
>
> That's called un-American! And you think the pharmaceutical
> companies don't have a powerful lobby?
>
> Think again!
>
> Please forward this to every person
> you know over age 50.
>
> It is an interesting point of view.
> Maybe this is an issue that should come up in the next election!
>
> Forget the 50, send it to everyone. Sooner, or later, we're
> all in this boat together!

[Christmas]

you done did good

[Joyous]

Chris, my daughter sent that to me and I agreed completely.

[wolfprincess]

Joyous, I feel that I should post this url here for all to see. If you agree with me I could also post other information that I have posted elsewhere. My main objective is to "Wake Up America" and listen to God's warnings.

http://members.aol.com/sue4jesus24/Page21.html

wolfprincess

[Christmas]

There are good people in New Orleans, however, the good people did not protest the goings on in the French Quarter after all it was bringing in mucho money.

I lived near New Orleans for 20 years. My husband was born there 70 years ago. We married when he was 20 and he refused to take me to New Orleans saying it was sick and he wanted no truck with it.

When I was in early twenties, I thought I wanted to see Mardi Gras just one time. Walking thru the mall in Baton Rouge I stopped in front of a display of books at Barnes/Noble where I saw a large book of photographs on Mardi Gras. I opened it and glanced thru it and what I saw was common, gross, and showed the sad part of human nature. I never wanted to go again.
Since that time some 35 years ago, I have watched more and more filth overlooked and celebrated.

It is my hope that the people of New Orleans be able to be removed to safety and that the gulf of Mexico swallow up the Old New Orleans forever. Perhaps in the second go round decency will come forth and prevail.

[Joyous]

Chris, we can pray they will wake up. If this isn't a wake up call, what will it take? Funny, I used to wish I could go to Mardi Gras so very much. Then after I begin to mature, I realized that wasn't what I needed or wanted. I would have liked seeing the grand old city, but you're right. It is gone and I hope if it's rebuilt it will be above water level. My heart cries out for those who lost loved ones, their homes, everything. How can any sane person steal under these circumstances? They would have to have a callous over their heart an inch thick. Oh that the Holy Spirit could reach them. I pray that the next person who reaches out to steal will see the face of Jesus right there!

Wolfprincess, you can post anything here because you will only post decent URLs.

[Tori]

I read another article written by a muslim leader claiming New Orleans is the Sodom and Gomorra of today and Katrina was punishment from Allah on the Christian world. If that's the case whats their reasoning behind the Tsunami?

I seriously doubt that Katrina is God's direct punishment. But I do think that America is bringing about it's own destruction.

We're doing it by continously making poor choices and abandoning everything that's decent in life in the name of political correctness; we're destroying the country our forefathers sacrificed so much to build.

There was some discussion on Larry King's special about bringing in mobile homes to house the homeless. Imagine what a hurricane and flood would do to trailers and their inhabitants!

IMO they should rebuild what they need to keep the shipping open, but fill up the bowl with the debris, bury the rest of the town and move to higher ground!

The cost of rebuilding will be monumental even for the richest country in the world! It simply isn't worth it.

One last thought! This event is going to have an impact on our society that none of us can even imagine right now!

Stepping down from soapbox now!

BTW Hi to everyone!

:D

[Joyous]

Tori, how are things with you, personally?

I have been so sad, numb, confused as to what to do to help. We live to far away to just jump in and assist. My daughter in law went out and bought necessary items to send. So did I. Big Boy's restaurant will ship the boxes. I bought wet wipes, hand sanitizer, toothpaste and brushes, hair brushes, sanitary napkins, ointment for diaper rash, small bottles of mouth wash. Vitamins. a few stuffed animals, socks, band aids, Kleenex. It's little, but I feel better-a little.

[Tori]

Hi Joyous, We're doing okay physically, Dutch has healed nicely and is back walking again. Trudy and Craig are still in limbo waiting for the government to make up their mind about Craigs disability. I don't think Craig is doing too well, since we haven't seen him in weeks. He only goes out of the house for doctor appts.

Kathy sold her house and moved into an apartment. She was by herself for 2 weeks and loved it! Now her youngest son has moved in with her. I warned her not to get a 2 bedroom! LOL
She's coming down tomorrow evening and will be here till Wednesday evening, mostly to visit and play with James, but also to do some shopping. She's still furnishing her apartment since when she moved she threw everything away that she had when she was married! Can't say that I blame her...

We have people from New Orleans arriving in Phoenix tonight.
They'll be at the veterans coloseum, just a couple of miles from here.

We had an extremely heavy rain with street flooding a couple of hours ago and more expected in a couple of hours. For their sakes I hope it's over by the time they get here. They must be unbelievably traumatized by this time!

I've been glued to the TV set the last few days as I was after the death of JFK and after 911. My heart has been terribly burdened for the victims and it seemed like I was always on the verge of tears. Tonight I watched a special on the tragedy and when Johhny Cash's, Bridge Over Troubled Waters, began to play I couldn't hold them back anymore! They're constantly in my prayers as they are of most of us!

On top of all that we now have the news of the death of The Chief Justice. Another event that will sharply divide the country as a replacement is being sought.

Our country is in serious trouble and I pray for it constantly too!
Not for me, but for my grandchildren and great grandchildren!

[Joyous]

Tori, my sentiments exactly. It's our grandchildren I worry over. The world you and I grew up in has faded into a quagmire. Constant prayer and total surrender is the only comfort.

I am so glad your family is mending. God bless each of you. We missed you here.

[Shar]

I agree with the comments all of you ladies made. I read an article that really lays it on the line as to why there was looting in the midst of rescue operations. See what you think.

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

We can't seem to find a place to send anything. Just money it seems is all the Red Cross, etc wants and their reasons seemed reasonable so I guess we can't complain. But, there is a shelter set up here, even though our town is only 50,000 ppl., and is set up by the Red Cross. The overflow from the Atlanta center so they can take more I believe. Now, we will be checking to see if they will take clothing and other goods since the people can either stay in the shelter and/or go to living quarters when jobs are found or homes for them to go to. We have room for a couple and I would imagine they want to match people with people so neither one will be a burden to each other but a joy instead.

[Joyous]

Shar, I may be way off base, but several folks agree with me. Puttting money into hands is always risky. I prefer to see where my money goes, so that's why we sent articles of a sanitary nature. Anybody who has no home can certainly use wet wipes , toothbrush, & paste, etc.

For those who wish to give money, I have no comment. I'm sure it's needed. My preference is the Salvation Army. They work quietly behind the scene while the Red Cross gets all the media attention. So There! :D

[Christmas]

I read the article more than once and agree with it!

Joy, I agree with you and the Salvation Army. And locally our churches are handling refugees so I think I will split up my donations.

love to all and glad to see more action in the site!!!!!!!!!!!

[Joyous]

Me too, Chris. There was a time I felt like just leaving the site and putting my self into another site. I'm so glad I stuck here. It was lonely for awhile, but now it's becomming home again.:)

[Shar]

LOL, the Salvation Army is the one I trust the most too Joyous and Christmas. Our church was taking the items you mentioned Joyous as they housed over 800 and just closed down this week as all either went to relatives, apts here, housing with some here or went elsewhere. Many have found jobs here and do not plan to go back, or at least not for a long while as their homes were destroyed completely.

WOW TORI, you are one more busy lady!!

[Edie]

Originally posted by wolfprincess
Joyous, I feel that I should post this url here for all to see. If you agree with me I could also post other information that I have posted elsewhere. My main objective is to "Wake Up America" and listen to God's warnings.

http://members.aol.com/sue4jesus24/Page21.html

wolfprincess
Are you really serious that God destroyed the city of New Oreleans. This is hateful! It is just as bad as the Islamics.

[wolfprincess]

Are you really serious that God destroyed the city of New Oreleans. This is hateful! It is just as bad as the Islamics.

============================================
Edie: I am sorry that you think my post was hateful. I posted it from my own personal point of view. Yes, I believe that God does control the weather....and one scripture reference is in

Nahum 1: 1-5

I am asking your forgiveness if you think I offened anyone. The people of New Orleans were warned to go to safety. Some chose not to. I am a firm believer that some good has come out of the disaster there. Can you not agree that the death toll was not as many as they first thought and this is good news? I am sorry that many did suffer and lost personal belongings. This was trully a "wake up call" for America.

I must mention to you that every human life is important to God. Please re-consider your remark about the Islamic people. They are God's creations just like you and I.

[Christmas]

new orleans and the gulf coast did not have the devistation (sp)of Galveston in 1900.........8,000 people died.

Galveston needed a sea wall. They spent the money on theaters, businesses and pleasure. The seawall was built AFTER the hurricane.

New Orleans will be wiser hopefully when rebuilding.

[Christmas]

the NOAA/NWS.....Tropical Prediction Center of Miami Florida

The message to costal residents:

research and understand what a hurricane can do.

when hurricane threatens your area MOVE away til hurricane passes.

unless message is taken seriously by costal residents, diasterous loss of life is inevitable in the future.

From listening to the professors studying hurricanes who work at L.S.U. in Baton Rouge......all hurricanes should be considered dangerous regardless of whether they are graded one, two, three, four or five. They all have potential to kill.

[Christmas]

coastal

[Edie]

Originally posted by wolfprincess
Are you really serious that God destroyed the city of New Oreleans. This is hateful! It is just as bad as the Islamics.

============================================
Edie: I am sorry that you think my post was hateful. I posted it from my own personal point of view. Yes, I believe that God does control the weather....and one scripture reference is in

Nahum 1: 1-5

I am asking your forgiveness if you think I offened anyone. The people of New Orleans were warned to go to safety. Some chose not to. I am a firm believer that some good has come out of the disaster there. Can you not agree that the death toll was not as many as they first thought and this is good news? I am sorry that many did suffer and lost personal belongings. This was trully a "wake up call" for America.

I must mention to you that every human life is important to God. Please re-consider your remark about the Islamic people. They are God's creations just like you and I.
You have to ask forgiveness of the people you offended - the thousands of evacuees, the families who lost loved ones, the children who are orphaned etc.

I compared what you said to the Islamics who rejoiced when our towers were hit and those Islamics who gloated that Katrina was an act of god against the heathens (that's us folks). Don't try and twist my words to something I didn't say. They are just as hateful in what they are saying as you saying that this is an Act of God. I think you two must worship the same God, and not the God that Jesus told us about. So, no, I won't reconsider what I said about them. You however should reconsider your remarks about God destroying the city and the death count is now up to 700. It must please you that there were some homosexuals in there too. This is what you linked to below:

"God Destroyed the City"

Philadelphia, Pa. September 1, 2005

Covenant News Wire Service

Just days before “Southern Decadence�, an annual homosexual celebration attracting tens of thousands of people to the French Quarters section of New Orleans, an act of God destroys the city.

[Christmas]

God is God
And God will do as he pleases in order to work his way
Putting God in a box acccording to man's thoughts doesn't work .....He says...."my ways are not your ways and my thoughts are not your thoughts".


It is puzzling in my finite mind why many things happen but I believe that God has a plan for this world and whether it is liked by all won't matter.

There is a book, WHEN BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE, that I have had recommended and I believe I will see if I can find it and read it. I saw a lecturer on literature suggest that it helps with the questions of "why".

[Joyous]

Chris, you're right that we do not know the ways of God. When the Israelites neglected worship of God, He withdrew protection from them, allowing their enemies to take control and force them into slavery. It behooves us to be in total surrender always to Almighty God.

We just came home from South Carolina. We traveled over 700 miles each way without any problem befalling us. I believe it is because we asked God's mercy upon leaving and He saw fit to protect us. At one point the car was acting funny. My daughter drives and she told us. My gr.son and I prayed and the car straightened up right away. I am not saying that nothing bad will ever happen to my family. I am saying that I try always to be in total surrender to His will.

[Shar]

Christmas and Joyous, it is odd that mankind cannot create a person from nothing, nor understand how dirt and the correct components can grow a rose? But, wants to question the mind of a creator that does all of those. I agree that only by believing, by faith, will we ever come close to the answers until the day He personally tells us. Perhaps at that time we may be so estatic about being in His presence that we won't care to ask, that knowing He is love will answer all our questions. I pray for that kind of faith and acceptance each day.

Wolfprincess, I must admit, I do not quite understand your comments to Edie. After pulling up your URL I could see prophecy by Kim Clement, then Message From Sue and then it appears after one paragraph it is back to Kim Clement again. Admittedly, I could not tell that for sure except it seemed to end with him again.

Under...This Is A Warning" I saw an inflammatory remark , to quote, "They have Banned the Bible and God from the Schools but they let Islamics worship at prayer time, and have Islamic classes. Satan is in control of everything upon this earth at this time, and Satan Thinks he Has You" where as Edie was alluding to one group of Islamics that are against anything American, including Americans and rejoice in whatever bad might happen here...the other remark seemed to want to incite hatred against all Islamics. IMO

There are enough places in the Bible that tells us how to know a false prophet so I won't post any verses here. But I would check out Kim Clements as Scripture says, and here are some failed prophecies of his.
http://www.geocities.com/Bob_Hunter/clement.html

There are others if you go back to his site and check them against when he said he prophesied something and it is after the fact.

Christmas, I have that book around here somewhere and will go find it and re read it also..thanks for the reminder.

Joyous, remind your "ye of so little faith" friend to tell you about going from San Angelo, TX to Austin with the gas light pinging and showing empty and my little sister saying, God will protect us...and praying...It is quite a story. She had to have faith enough for two back in those days..*S*

[Joyous]

Quote
"They have Banned the Bible and God from the Schools but they let Islamics worship at prayer time, and have Islamic classes. Satan is in control of everything upon this earth at this time, and Satan Thinks he Has You"

There is truth in this statement. It is not to be argued with.

I will not become embroiled in a religious argument. I will defend Wolfprincess as a fine, Christian woman who means no harm to anyone.

[Shar]

I don't see a religious "argument" in my last post nor do I see where I implied that Wolfprincess meant harm to anyone or was not a Christian. Since I go to a Bible Study she has daily, I wouldn't go if I believed she was not a Christian and very kind hearted. From the URL I stated that I could not tell where Clements prophecy ended and Wolfprincess's started and then ended.

I do stand by my post about Kim Clements and if it is arguing to search Scripture and tell when someone is falsely prophecing as we are told to do, then I am arguing.

[Joyous]

Shar, my dear sister in Christ, I was refering to the apparent misunderstanding between Wolf Princess and Edie. I know you and would never think so of you. Perhaps I misunderstood the entire thing. For this I apologize. Forgive my lack of intelligence? I love you my sister.

[Christmas]

love you
love you
love you

[Joyous]

Thank you
Thank you
Thank you

[Edie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shar
Wolfprincess, I must admit, I do not quite understand your comments to Edie. After pulling up your URL I could see prophecy by Kim Clement, then Message From Sue and then it appears after one paragraph it is back to Kim Clement again. Admittedly, I could not tell that for sure except it seemed to end with him again.
I didn't understand it either and figured that she was just trying to change the subject since she couldn't answer what I stated. Some people do that when they can't figure out an answer, they just attack the person instead and hope the subject goes off on to something else.

[wolfprincess]

wow! I must have really stirred up something here in this forum!
I begin this post by sending a scripture in the first book of Corinthians: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace,.........." 1 Corinthians 14:33

It seems as though I have caused some confusion here in this forum and I will apologize now if I have offened anyone. It has been aprox one year now since I entered the computer scene with forums. I allow the Holy Spirit to lead me in how I post in the forums. I spend time in prayer before I post. Many times there is a long delay in between my posts because the timing is not right or the message I want to send has not been given me. I have found out there are people who seem to want to try and take away from the move of the Holy Spirit. This I have determined is satan's way of sending his message of evil. he does not want us to trust of believe in God; therefore he tries to undo God's message. We must go back about 30 days in time to my original post. All I did was post a url for information I felt was of importance of the times we are living. As time progressed I mentioned that God controls the weather and sent scripture. Some of you commented on the url and the so called movement of the homesexuals. All I want to be known here is that in the
Bible this activity is wrong.......however God loves those people. He loves all people and that includes the Muslims that were mentioned in one post . I do not claim to be perfect.... I am a sinner saved by grace. To say that one religion or one group of people is being punished by God is not my goal here. Hurricanes are warnings from God that we should wake up before it is too late. I am sorry that Katrina destroyed much in Louisiana. The people did have warning and chose to stay. The latest death toll is about 1,100 far less than was predicited right after the storm. That in itself is a blessing from God.

This remark could be taken by me as a hurtful remark but I will not allow that in my life. "I didn't understand it either and figured that she was just trying to change the subject since she couldn't answer what I stated. Some people do that when they can't figure out an answer, they just attack the person instead and hope the subject goes off on to something else." I was not trying to attack anyone. Perhaps this person is trying to attack me.....or even God's message. How many people view this forum? I am here to listen to God and bring His message of love and wisdom to whoever will listen. Like the scripture says........" God is not the author of confusion......" The sooner we can get along in harmony the better. From now on I will be more careful about what I post here. Thank you and all of you have a blessed day.

[Joyous]

WolfPrincess, I see your post as an olive branch being offered. I commend you.

[Edie]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wolfprincess
wow! I must have really stirred up something here in this forum!
I begin this post by sending a scripture in the first book of Corinthians: "For God is not the author of confusion but of peace,.........." 1 Corinthians 14:33

He loves all people and that includes the Muslims that were mentioned in one post .
God isn't the author but you are still trying to chane the subject here and keep things confused. You are the one who put words in my mouth, not the Holy Spirit and you need to address that yourself.


I do not claim to be perfect.... I am a sinner saved by grace. To say that one religion or one group of people is being punished by God is not my goal here. Hurricanes are warnings from God that we should wake up before it is too late.
That is just your opinion and not everyone thinks that a loving God causes evil.


I was not trying to attack anyone. Perhaps this person is trying to attack me.....or even God's message.
Very nasty tactics on your part here. You twist things around so that anyone who dares to challenge you is now attacking God's message. That is pretty low, even if you do wrap yourself in a cloak of holiness. Did the Holy Spirit tell you to do such a low thing and twist things out of shape like that?

How many people view this forum? I am here to listen to God and bring His message of love and wisdom to whoever will listen. Like the scripture says........" God is not the author of confusion......" The sooner we can get along in harmony the better. From now on I will be more careful about what I post here. Thank you and all of you have a blessed day.
Sounds like you are here in arrogance instead of in love. You have some nasty tactics lady. You might fool some of the people, but not anyone who really takes the time to read your actual words.

[Christmas]

I agree that none of us are perfect., none of us.

welcome back

if you type something with which I do not agree, I will check scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to open my mind to the truth.

I am comfortable with your post.

[wolfprincess]

Sure Edie if that is the way you feel about me go right ahead. There must be some reason why you feel the way you do about me. God knows what is in my heart and I will not add anything to what I have already stated.

[Christmas]

I need to know the Book and Chapter regarding forgiveness of 70 x 7.

[Edie]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Christmas [
I am comfortable with your post. [/B][/QU
You mean you are comfortable with her telling me that disagreeing with her means disagreeing with God? did you actually read anything she posted? you are really ok with all of that?

[Christmas]

her apology appears genuine to me


politics and religion are so easy to disagree on


I meant no harm to either of you only wish peace, joy and comfort

[Joyous]

WolfPrincess has apologized. Edie, will you accept her apology? If not, what more is there to say?

Christmas is correct. It is so easy to disagree on politics and religion.

[Shar]

Now Mz Christmas, you knew you would send me searching for that Scripture didn't you? ;) One place is: Matthew 18:21-22

21. Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

22. Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy X seven times".

Along with this verse, Ephesians 4:17-32 (Living as Children of Light), particularly verses 25-32.
The Bible doesn't tell us we should not be angry but shows it is important to handle our anger properly. That we are to speak truthfully but with no unwholesome talk and what may benefit those who listen.

**I edited the times sign on verse 22 today. Until I read my post today I had an - rather than a X ..sorry...I do not seem to proof as well as I used to.

[Shar]

Joyous, forgive me for being so lax with all that is going on that I just read your post and am replying. What a wonderful example of clearing up misunderstandings. I think I need you here with me full time just now, as they are abounding in the Lubbock situation with our getting reports from the doctor and getting reports from everyone else involved..*S*

[Joyous]

Shar, it's easy when I'm not the one involved. As a bystander, I can referee handily. Edie may not take kindly to my post, but it's true. The ball is in her court now.

[Edie]

Originally posted by Joyous
WolfPrincess has apologized. Edie, will you accept her apology? If not, what more is there to say?

Christmas is correct. It is so easy to disagree on politics and religion.
Did you completely miss where she snuck in that part about how disagreeing with her was disagreeing with God. An apology is not an apology if it contains another sneaky attack.

She disguised an attack as an apology. Doesn't fly to people who read what she says.

[Edie]

Originally posted by Christmas
her apology appears genuine to me


politics and religion are so easy to disagree on


I meant no harm to either of you only wish peace, joy and comfort
Read what she posted and how she snuck in another cheap shot. that is not an apology.

Is she being defended because she sandwiches her cheap shots with bible quotes?

[Christmas]

I guess I was looking for a glass half full rather than half empty.

[Joyous]

Sometimes it's best to fold and go home. I think this is one of those times.

[wolfprincess]

Am I the dumb one or am I not? What in the world are we referring to here? What cheap shot?? I am really in the dark. And Edie please don't say this remark here is a cheap one toward God. I honestly do not understand what you are so upset about here. Draw me a road map please so I can understand. If you knew me you would understand me. I am really not a "Holier than thou" type of person. Let me ask you something: Is my avatar upsetting you? If so I will give you a brief history as why I chose the name and the avatar.
Thank you.

wolfprincess

[wolfprincess]

Several hours have passed and I came back to read and reread the past few weeks of posts here in this thread. I believe at this time that The Holy Spririt is talking within my soul and I must obey what is needed. I have stated that God is not the author of confusion and if I have caused any confusion what soever it is time for me to stay away. So until further notice I will not post here in this forum until I feel that I can do so with out someone getting upset with me. I meant no harm in what I posted. I felt that I was led of God to post what I did. May God bless each and everyone of you. (I will not put any Bible scripture here at this time even though I have some in mind.) Take care everyone. I will be back at a later time.

wolfprincess

[Lizard]

Fascinating, for an agnostic-looking-in,
to study this exchange between Christians.

Unfortunately, similar religious "certainties" have long been fought out on the international scene - and we can all see the result.
Not saying this is solely a Christian phenomenon.

Within any 'brand' of religion, violence and intolerance has been a 'given'.
Catholics have slaughtered protestant 'heretics', both camps barbequed 'witches'.

Sunnis will argue ( perhaps to the death?) with Shi'ites etc etc - about things we would deem inconsequential.

Not to mention the conflicts BETWEEN religious 'brands'.

Must it always be so ?

The time when humanity is mature enough to say
"I choose to believe so-and-so but jolly good luck to those who choose otherwise "
maybe THEN there will be hope for peace in our families, our countries and around the planet.

[Christmas]

As to religion......it sure can be something when there are so many.

I have folk say what church do you belong to (I suppose what religion are you).

My reply is .....I belong to Jesus Christ not a particular religion or church.

No matter what another believes the only influence I can have especially here is to share my heart and then let the Holy Spirit come into play as to moving another person.

However, I did not come in to preach. Just came to visit and to share and to let you know you bring life with you. Just think how important you are. This has been a lovely day for me and it all started with waking this monster to see what was in the mail box.
Of course, I then had to check it out and THERE YOU WERE/ARE/IS......never could do that conjugation thing and don't think I spelled it correctly either.

The day has rolled on from one nice thing to another.
So glad you are with us.

Chris

[OneSG]

Re: WAKE UP AMERICA
quote:

Originally posted by wolfprincess
Joyous, I feel that I should post this url here for all to see. If you agree with me I could also post other information that I have posted elsewhere. My main objective is to "Wake Up America" and listen to God's warnings.

"http://members.aol.com/sue4jesus24/Page21.html"

wolfprincess


Are you really serious that God destroyed the city of New Oreleans. This is hateful! It is just as bad as the Islamics.
==============================================
quote:

Originally posted by wolfprincess
Are you really serious that God destroyed the city of New Oreleans. This is hateful! It is just as bad as the Islamics.

============================================
Edie: I am sorry that you think my post was hateful. I posted it from my own personal point of view. Yes, I believe that God does control the weather....and one scripture reference is in

Nahum 1: 1-5

I am asking your forgiveness if you think I offened anyone. The people of New Orleans were warned to go to safety. Some chose not to. I am a firm believer that some good has come out of the disaster there. Can you not agree that the death toll was not as many as they first thought and this is good news? I am sorry that many did suffer and lost personal belongings. This was trully a "wake up call" for America.

I must mention to you that every human life is important to God. Please re-consider your remark about the Islamic people. They are God's creations just like you and I.


You have to ask forgiveness of the people you offended - the thousands of evacuees, the families who lost loved ones, the children who are orphaned etc.

I compared what you said to the Islamics who rejoiced when our towers were hit and those Islamics who gloated that Katrina was an act of god against the heathens (that's us folks). Don't try and twist my words to something I didn't say. They are just as hateful in what they are saying as you saying that this is an Act of God. I think you two must worship the same God, and not the God that Jesus told us about. So, no, I won't reconsider what I said about them. You however should reconsider your remarks about God destroying the city and the death count is now up to 700. It must please you that there were some homosexuals in there too. This is what you linked to below:
============================================

What it all about with this Edie person? Someone posts a URL and the effluent starts flying.
Whoever mentioned homosexual perverts Edie? Whats wrong some of your mates there?

[Lizard]

" Wake up America now "

But somehow the fundies manage to drag their religious twaddle into EVERY topic.

Is nothing sacred ?

Can't we preserve at least this Topic for some good ole, down to earth Yank bashin' ??

[Christmas]

YANK BUSTIN!!!!! INDEED!


YOU AND WHAT ARMY!!!!

Now Liz, this place has dwindled and it seems that topics just get mixed up according to who is here and the response.

if this will post, I am going to give you a place to go play til I can catch a plane to OZ and we will have hand to hand combat.


DEDGE.COM/FLASH/HANGMAN........don't use caps and put the http:// thing before it.

Chris



ONEG........................IT is wonderful to see your name on the board. I am going back right now and review it. PLEASE come again.

[Joyous]

Lizard, it's difficult to find a topic where we Christians leave God out because He lives in us (In the form of His Holy Spirit). Therefore to leave Him out would be like turning the light off and trying to type.

Ah, not a good analogy as some folks can type without seeing the keys.

[OneSG]

Lizard
Junior Member

Is nothing sacred ?

Can't we preserve at least this Topic for some good ole, down to earth Yank bashin' ??

================================
Hi you poor old yankohobe. Tell me Liz, what have the yanks done to you? Maybe you're half yank yourself you are about the right age. Come on Liz fess up.

[Lizard]

G'day all !

" Maybe you're half yank yourself you are about the right age "

aaaaaaaaaaarggghhhhhhhh !
Now that's hitting below the belt, One.
I'll have a long and serious chat with my mum before deciding whether to slash my wrists.

Of course, you're right. It's POSSIBLE.
I do have a range of weaknesses which could be attributed to such a genetic disaster.

And I WAS conceived in early 1945.
At which time Australia's young men were away actually fighting a war
whilst their wives, daughters and girlfriends were at the mercy of a flood of idle Yanks swanning around Australia.

[Joyous]

Lizard, do you suppose the body count of American soldiers was from returning Australian husbands?

Let us know what Mum says about your parentage, aye?:D

[Joyous]

Lizard-Keith, I just wanted to tell you about a dear, young man who came to my church from Australia to go to school and now does evangelical work in our neighborhood. He is probably in his 40s, although I am unable to judge age, and he owns a farm in the Outback of Australia. He loves his farm and I'm sure he misses it much, but he has this mission to follow where ever God sends him. I believe he is here for the year of 2005. What then, I do not know. He has served in Africa as well. A handsome man who looks as if he is capable of handling farm work.

If Rodney is an example of Australians, I am impressed.

[wolfprincess]

Tis so grand to log in and find
Two grown men each a vivid mind
I for one hope you both will stay
To be each other's own prey
What we need is a good debate
One that contains no evil hate
Just some good down out fun
I know you both will hit not run

[Joyous]

Rah, rah, rah, for Wolfprincess! You tell em.

[Christmas]

loved that Wolfprincess.

My sentiments exactly


62 days

[Lizard]

One at a time, folks.

JOYOUS
My dear old mum is a super-fit 86 and I would not dare tell her that I questioned my paternity.
She'd beat me to a bloody pulp if I suggested she may have coupled with a YANK !
Apart from that, no branch of the services would accept my father during the war (he'd had three fingers amputated) so he was actually around to protect her virtue.
Seriously though, relations between Aussie males and Yanks were a bit strained during the war.
Go to Google and key
"Battle of Brisbane".

Re: Rodney
However 'dear' he might be, he is NOT " an example of Australians ".
He seems too good to be true.
One wonders what 'school' this 40yo would have sought in the States which he could not find in Aus.
and
not many 40yo farmers in Aus who are financially able to leave their farms whilst they go off selling Jesus to Africa and America.
The " handsome" part?
Well yes, that IS OBVIOUSLY typical of we Australian males.

[Joyous]

Lizard, you made me laugh and right this moment, I need a good laugh.

Rodney came here to attend Arise, an Adventist school. He is a dear person and if he is typical of the Aussie handsome males, bravo!

I expect the Yanks would have a bit of a problem should Australian soldiers congregate in the US. I can understand how it would cause friction.

[Lizard]

Friction?
At a time when you'd think they'd be busy with the Japs or Germans or whoever,
they were thumping the crap out of EACH OTHER - in the streets of Brisbane.
Several died I believe.
The population of Brisbane at the time was around 300,000.
But through the war, some 900,000 Yanks passed through.
One can see the imbalance.
For 'morale' reasons, the conflicts have NEVER been reported in the American press.
I suspect that despite the weight of numbers, the Yanks might not have fared too well.

[Joyous]

Lizard, we Americans apologize for any slackers who made trouble , but for those few, there were thousands of brave, dependable, true soldiers. I'm sure Australia gave a few men who were not totally admirable.

[OneSG]

Originally posted by Joyous
Lizard, we Americans apologize for any slackers who made trouble , but for those few, there were thousands of brave, dependable, true soldiers. I'm sure Australia gave a few men who were not totally admirable.
=================================
They died building a railway Joyous.

[Joyous]

Originally posted by OneSG
=================================
They died building a railway Joyous.

Thank you, my friend!;)

[Christmas]

No, believe I will sleep thru it.




53 days til Christmas.
Things to do, things to do.

I ordered a revolving Christmas tree that plays 21 Christmas songs. It came in today. Now just where am I going to park it....or place it.

today is Bobby's 70th birthday.......he prefers pie to cake so, he has a lemon chess pie and a coconut cream pie.....his two favorites.

[Joyous]

Originally posted by Christmas
No, believe I will sleep thru it.




53 days til Christmas.
Things to do, things to do.

I ordered a revolving Christmas tree that plays 21 Christmas songs. It came in today. Now just where am I going to park it....or place it.

today is Bobby's 70th birthday.......he prefers pie to cake so, he has a lemon chess pie and a coconut cream pie.....his two favorites.

Happpy Birthday Greenjeans
That's a good wife you got there.:D

[Lizard]

I just saw the tail end of an interview with a Yank senator who actually seemed to make sense !
It was like winning the lottery - so unexpected !

I missed his name ( darn it ) but he was white haired and was on about preventing more torture of prisoners.

Can't see that he'll win that one even if he seems to. I mean, the torture will just go further undercover surely.

Maybe his time might be better spent if he devoted his energies to PREVENTING Yank military incursions into other sovereign countries.
Heck, it's been going on without a break for over half a century.

And, in the 'world's greatest democracy' unfortunately the PEOPLE have to accept responsibility for their governments' actions.

[Joyous]

I see that Australia has outed a few terrorists and are not immune to attacks by the Islamist terror reign. Sorry old chum, your country has a problem too.

[Lizard]

Too true, Joyous.

Australia is between a rock and a hard place ( what a silly expression).

We have the largest Islamic nation on the planet on our northern doorstep.
Australia has a population less than California.

Our political leaders tell us we need an alliance with the Yanks in case we are ever threatened.
Unfortunately that comes at a price.

Every time the Yanks need the appearance of international support for their latest military aggression,
Australia gets sucked in.
Whether it's Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East or wherever.

And that in turn makes the victims of that aggression want to retaliate with the only weapons at their disposal.

For my money, I'd rather sever the so-called alliance and be done with it.
Historically, there is no certainty the Yanks would honour it anyway - unless it were in THEIR interests at the time to do so.

I'd rather speak Indonesian than have to support every dirty war the Yanks start just on the off chance that they might help us if the need arose.
That is not a moral reasons for Australians killing civilians, women, children in Vietnam, the Middle East or anywhere else.

[Joyous]

Originally posted by Lizard
Too true, Joyous.

Australia is between a rock and a hard place ( what a silly expression).

We have the largest Islamic nation on the planet on our northern doorstep.
Australia has a population less than California.

Our political leaders tell us we need an alliance with the Yanks in case we are ever threatened.
Unfortunately that comes at a price.

Every time the Yanks need the appearance of international support for their latest military aggression,
Australia gets sucked in.
Whether it's Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East or wherever.

And that in turn makes the victims of that aggression want to retaliate with the only weapons at their disposal.

For my money, I'd rather sever the so-called alliance and be done with it.
Historically, there is no certainty the Yanks would honour it anyway - unless it were in THEIR interests at the time to do so.

I'd rather speak Indonesian than have to support every dirty war the Yanks start just on the off chance that they might help us if the need arose.
That is not a moral reasons for Australians killing civilians, women, children in Vietnam, the Middle East or anywhere else.

Lizard, it is up to the citizenry to make the changes they desire in their government. If the majority of Australians wish to break ties with the "Yanks", then they should vote into office those who will bring about such.

Perhaps you would have no problem bowing the knee to their god, making a pilgrimage to that hideous black stone at least once in your lifetime, but as for me, being a woman, I have no desire to wear a mask over my face, gowns that reach the ground, a scarf over my head. To each his or her own.

[cat39]

Originally posted by Christmas
Quentin, running things under what authority....political such as the US President, A dictator, Superman with super powers?



There's a difference?

[Christmas]

QUENTIN!!!!!!!!!!!


Where are you?

We need your input.

We miss your knowledge and dust kicking.

Are you okay?

Can you at least let us know how you are perking.

[cat39]

Originally posted by Joyous

Perhaps you would have no problem bowing the knee to their god, making a pilgrimage to that hideous black stone at least once in your lifetime, but as for me, being a woman, I have no desire to wear a mask over my face, gowns that reach the ground, a scarf over my head. To each his or her own.

Obviously, you were raised in a culture that finds modesty in women to be unimportant. If you are a christian, do you cover your head or shave it before praying? Or do you defy the Word of God.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Corinthians 11

Islamic women are not the only ones to cover themselves from head to toe...Nuns do it too and for much the same reason.

Muslim women who were raised to believe they should cover themselves in public are very uncomfortable when forced to uncover. That is the culture they were raised in, and like all human beings they believe what their parents, teachers, and society has taught since they were babes. Just as you do. They follow the instructions in the koran - do you follow the instructions in the bible?

Bow a knee to "their" God?? If there is an almighty God, how can there be more than one of these supreme beings?

"a trip to that hideous black stone"? This is a sacred pilgramage for them - how can one revile them for following the precepts of their religion? Do you not follow yours and make the pilgramage to your church at least on Easter and/or Christmas?

I thought christianity taught compassion, love, harmony and to be non-judgemental. Is this incorrect?

[Joyous]

Originally posted by cat39
Obviously, you were raised in a culture that finds modesty in women to be unimportant. If you are a christian, do you cover your head or shave it before praying? Or do you defy the Word of God.

But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Corinthians 11

Islamic women are not the only ones to cover themselves from head to toe...Nuns do it too and for much the same reason.

Muslim women who were raised to believe they should cover themselves in public are very uncomfortable when forced to uncover. That is the culture they were raised in, and like all human beings they believe what their parents, teachers, and society has taught since they were babes. Just as you do. They follow the instructions in the koran - do you follow the instructions in the bible?

Bow a knee to "their" God?? If there is an almighty God, how can there be more than one of these supreme beings?

"a trip to that hideous black stone"? This is a sacred pilgramage for them - how can one revile them for following the precepts of their religion? Do you not follow yours and make the pilgramage to your church at least on Easter and/or Christmas?

I thought christianity taught compassion, love, harmony and to be non-judgemental. Is this incorrect? Cat, my head is covered with hair. I believe the admonition for a woman's head to be covered was due to the culture of the time. I do believe in a certain modesty in woman and respect and kindness in men.

If woman covers her head and entire body of her own volition, then I have no problem with it. It is only when she is FORCED to do so that I object. There are nuns who pray with head covered and nuns who pray without covering. I believe Almighty God hears our prayers where ever we are, even if we stand naked. It is the humbled heart, the acceptance of His son, the open heart that allows the Holy Spirit to enter that Jehovah God listens to.

Indeed there are many gods and one Almighty God, Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. All people are free to worship any god they choose. Almighty God gives that freedom. Those who worship any god other than Almighty God Jehovah are worshiping a false god.

I know the blue stone was Jesus as the Holy Scriptures tell us. There is no scripture telling me to fall on my knees before a black stone in Mecca. To do so is to worship a false god. I am humbled before Almighty God, and am strong in speaking for Jesus the Christ my Saviour. I love God's children and would that all His creation believe and worship Him in truth. As for judging, we are not to judge sinners. We are to judge one another as Christians according to the scriptures. I was posting as I saw fit and do so believe.I could indeed be more humble. I ask forgiveness every day of my mortal life. I am thankful that He sees fit to forgive me because He loves me.

[cat39]

I know the blue stone was Jesus as the Holy Scriptures tell us. There is no scripture telling me to fall on my knees before a black stone in Mecca. To do so is to worship a false god.

And therein lies the problem. You believe the Bible to be the Word of God and so you try to follow its commandments. You believe that those who pray at Mecca are praying to a false God because the scripture you believe in doesn't mention it.

On the other side of the world, your Muslim counterpart is praying according to the Book she believes to be filled with the commands God and believes with all her heart that she is following God's will and doing as He commands.

You are positive you are right, she is positive she is right.

I believe you are both right. You are both following what you personally believe to be true, based on your life experiences - to do otherwise would be hypocritical for both of you.

However, being sure your way is the right one does not make it o.k. to mock the other's religious conviction - that is neither a christian nor a muslim thing to do. It is however, what causes so much hatred and distrust of persons from other cultures.

I'm not a religious person at all, but I believe compassion, understanding, acceptance and respecting others is the mark of a truly spiritual person, not what god they believe they are praying to, what holy book they read, or whether they pray in a church, a mosque, in front of a statue or in the privacy of their homes - with head and body covered or uncovered.

[Christmas]

We should be so fortunate as to have another like him.
George Washington, the republic's first president, proclaimed Nov. 26, 1789, as a day for thanking God for bringing America through its trials, that an official holiday was marked.


Here's what he proclaimed Oct. 3, 1789:

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor; and whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to recommend to the people of the United States a day of Public Thanksgiving and Prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.



Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the twenty-six of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that Great and Glorious Being, who is the Beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country, previous to their becoming a nation; for the single manifold mercies, and the favorable interposition's of His providence, in the courage and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish Constitutions of Government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the Great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private institutions, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discretely and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us) and to bless them with good governments, peace and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science, among them and us; and generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

(By the way, some revisionist historians have tried to suggest Washington was not a Christian, but a deist. You need only read this one proclamation to put to rest such fanciful ideas.)


AMEN............

[Christmas]

Canada's Largest Religious Weekly Tuesday - 11/29/2005



















Exploring the Catholic Catechism
Last Updated: Tuesday - 02/19/2002

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Week of April 5, 1999

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Captive in body, but not in spirit
Woman relied on God's grace to make escape from Iran

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By JOAN HINZ
Special to the WCR
Edmonton

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A two-week vacation in Iran turned Betty Mahmoody and her four-year-old daughter into hostages. Mahmoody, a 39-year-old Michigan woman, had been married to an Iranian-born doctor for seven years.
In 1984 he insisted Betty and their daughter Mahtob accompany him to visit his family in Iran. But as Betty was packing for the trip home, her husband told her she would never see America again. "You're in Iran until you die."

Mahmoody's struggle to obtain freedom for herself and her daughter are described in her Pulitzer-nominated book, Not Without My Daughter. The story is continued in her latest book, For the Love of a Child.

In a talk at the Winspear Centre March 24, she described how her husband became influenced by his Shiite Muslim family. When Mahmoody resisted the idea of staying in Iran her husband responded with beatings and abuse.

There was "No freedom of speech, no freedom to remain silent when you were told to speak." His family treated her with hostility. She didn't speak their language and did not know their customs. There was a lot of mistrust.

"Kids were asked at school what their parents drank and read and wore at home," described Mahmoody. "Freedoms that we take for granted in a free country were non-existent."

Iran and Iraq were at war. Border fighting was moving inward. "The air was filled with gunpowder and the smell of burning flesh," says Mahmoody. There were hardships in obtaining food. Water and electricity were turned off every day. There was a shortage of fuel.

But most difficult to deal with were the separations from Mahtob, her daughter. At one point she was locked up and interrogated for two weeks. They were both told they would never see each other again.

After a few months Betty convinced her husband she would stop resisting him. She managed a visit to the American Embassy. It was a great disappointment to learn they could not help. She was considered an Iranian citizen through her marriage.

As Mahmoody gained small freedoms from her husband, she took every opportunity to beg strangers for help. "There were so many people who tried to help," said Mahmoody. They did not want her to think all Iranians were like her husband. One person offered her $30,000, with no security to back the loan.

Mahmoody described how she and Mahtob would "whisper our prayers in English in the bathroom."

After 18 months of living in a foreign country against her will, Betty found a way to escape. "God opened the door for me. He gave me the courage to go through that door."

With the help of friends, they fled through the mountains of Turkey, walking, driving and on horseback. They had to climb the icy mountains when it became too steep for the horses. They crossed the border into Turkey during a civil war.

Now back in America, Betty Mahmoody is challenging people to change their lives.

In Tehran she met other women living in the same circumstances as herself, but observed, "I did not meet one other woman who was trying to get out." She told the audience we have choices how we are going to react to our situations. "We can sit back and complain or we can take steps to make it right."

She cited her faith as a factor in her survival. "Do I believe in miracles? Purely by the grace of God we made it back to America."

Mahtob is 19 now. Mahmoody described her as the real heroine. "She always said, 'When we escape from Iran, not if.'"

During the question and answer portion of the lecture, someone asked what advice she had for couples considering marrying someone from another culture.

Mahmoody suggested they go back to that person's country and see how they behave in their own environment. "When we had children, he wanted to go back to his roots."

Even if that person is not practising the religion in which they were raised, consider that many people return to their spiritual roots when they have children. She said you need to identify the roles of wife, mother and child in that culture.

When Betty returned to Michigan, her troubles were not over. She worked for almost six years to change legislation to make abduction a federal felony. Extradition is now possible amongst countries who have signed agreements.

She was also asked about forgiveness. "I have forgiven him," she replied. "I haven't forgotten. I had to do that to move on in my life. I grieved and I moved on."

Mahmoody and lawyer, Arnold Dunchock co-founded a non-profit organization to further the causes of children caught in intercultural disputes, One World: For Children.


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Copyright © 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 -- Western Catholic Reporter

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The Mission of the Western Catholic Reporter is . . . .
"To serve our readers by helping them deepen their faith through accurate information and reflective commentary on events and issues of concern to the church."

[Ms. Moxy]

Originally posted by Christmas
(By the way, some revisionist historians have tried to suggest Washington was not a Christian, but a deist. You need only read this one proclamation to put to rest such fanciful ideas.)


To be honest, I see nothing in Washington's proclamation that would lead me to believe that he is a Christian....it's really quite generic and only indicates to me that he believed in a higher power and called it by the common terminology in use in the English speaking world--"God" (which is not, by the way, a term used exclusively by Christians).

You might be interested to know that Washington, although he did attend church occasionally, never took communion. On his deathbed, he refused to have a minister present. All these facts are available in the Library of Congress and the docents at Mount Vernon are quite informative as well in this regard.

In any event, it really shouldn't matter whether or not George Washington was a Christian as the United States of America is a secular state and separation of church and state are written into the Constitution.

[Christmas]

After reading over the post of Washington, I do not see Jesus mentioned. However, I very much liked what he had to say and will continue to believe that he gave credit where credit is due.

We have been protected by more than just our own strengths because some dumb stuff has been done which should have led to our downfall. Sheer dumb luck just passes over my head.

I have had more than one military person remark to me that in the trenches God is welcome.

Who are they gonna call on....Ghostbusters?

[cat39]

By the way, some revisionist historians have tried to suggest Washington was not a Christian, but a deist. You need only read this one proclamation to put to rest such fanciful ideas.

In truth, you have that backwards. Washington was a Deist and this thanksgiving proclamation is in line with the beliefs of the Deists of that time.

It is only since the religious right has started wanting to rewrite the constitution to include God have the christians been trying to prove that the founding fathers were christians.

[Christmas]

I was there at Valley Forge and I was at Gettsburg: then in world war two I was known as George Patton.

I know it all first hand.

There is no more discussion on my part.

[cat39]

Then you should know....

[Ms. Moxy]

Originally posted by Christmas
I was there at Valley Forge and I was at Gettsburg: then in world war two I was known as George Patton.

I know it all first hand.

Good grief, Christmas....just how old are you?!!!

[Christmas]

lol, old enough, I don't the fingers and toes I need to count back that far.


Good Morning and good morning.

sun is shinning and I am off and running

pretty good for an old old lady, huh!

[Shar]

QUOTE by Ms Moxy "the United States of America is a secular state and separation of church and state are written into the Constitution"
************************************************** **

"Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution. However, the words: 'separation', 'church', and 'state' do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...' The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. You can read the entire article here., and there is more proof if you will read the constitution."
http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html
************************************************** *

QUOTE "Therefore, if Jefferson’s letter is to be used today, let its context be clearly given-as in previous years. Furthermore, earlier Courts had always viewed Jefferson’s Danbury letter for just what it was: a personal, private letter to a specific group. There is probably no other instance in America’s history where words spoken by a single individual in a private letter-words clearly divorced from their context-have become the sole authorization for a national policy. Finally, Jefferson’s Danbury letter should never be invoked as a stand-alone document. A proper analysis of Jefferson’s views must include his numerous other statements on the First Amendment."
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9

QUOTE. " President John Quincy Adams, the son of the great Founding statesman from Massachusetts who did so much to inspire the Declaration of Independence, stated the truth succinctly on July 4, 1821: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

"One of many efforts to limit the power of the federal government, the Constitution left authority over religious matters to the States. The Supreme Court consistently adhered to this constitutional principle until well into the twentieth century. In 1947. In the case, Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court applied the "establishment clause" of the First Amendment to the states. In the context of the "separation of church and state," the Court's foundational reinterpretation of the Constitution was complete. From 1947 forward, the Court has ruled with regularity on religious issues, in direct violation of the original meaning of the First Amendment. Their rulings, and those of lower courts (federal and State) have become the "law" of "separation of church and state."
That was a very brief description of how the federal courts have taken authority over religious issues, reinterpreting the First Amendment and applying it to the States by way of the Fourteenth Amendment."
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g004.html

"During the first week of July of that year, the Battle of Gettysburg occurred, resulting in the loss of some 60,000 American lives. Four months later in November, Lincoln delivered his famous "Gettsysburg Address." It was while Lincoln was walking among the thousands of graves there at Gettysburg that he committed his life to Christ. As he explained to a friend:
When I left Springfield [to assume the Presidency] I asked the people to pray for me. I was not a Christian. When I buried my son, the severest trial of my life, I was not a Christian. But when I went to Gettysburg and saw the graves of thousands of our soldiers, I then and there consecrated myself to Christ."

"I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, it is probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings, that ‘except the Lord build the House, they labour in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel:"
(Benjamin Franklin at the Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787.)
************************************************** *
Christmas, if anyone can read what you posted about George Washington and still proclaim him a deist, then proof means nothing and the argument will go on. Also, anyone can post one comment out of context such as the Jefferson letter that gave his thoughts and has been misconstrued. People usually believe what they want to and no amount of proof will satisfy them. An example is saying that Franklin was a deist because they believe he used the word God to mean any god. Wonder how they see his comment about the sparrow? After all, that certainly is Biblical and that is what he was quoting.

IMO

[cat39]

Furthermore, earlier Courts had always viewed Jefferson’s Danbury letter for just what it was: a personal, private letter to a specific group. There is probably no other instance in America’s history where words spoken by a single individual in a private letter-

One needs to read the background of this letter and the parts that were edited before dismissing it as a personal private letter. :

The next day, New Year's Day, was a busy one for the president, who received and entertained various groups of well-wishers, but so eager was he to complete his answer to the Danbury Baptists that, amid the hubbub, he sent his draft to Lincoln with a cover note explaining his reasons for writing it. Lincoln responded immediately; just as quickly, Jefferson edited the draft to conform to Lincoln's suggestions, signed the letter and released it, all on New Year's Day, 1802.

That Jefferson consulted two New England politicians about his messages indicated that he regarded his reply to the Danbury Baptists as a political letter, not as a dispassionate theoretical pronouncement on the relations between government and religion. His letter, he told Lincoln in his New Year's Day note, was meant to gratify public opinion in Republican strongholds like Virginia, "being seasoned to the Southern taste only."
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danbury.html

" President John Quincy Adams, the son of the great Founding statesman from Massachusetts who did so much to inspire the Declaration of Independence, stated the truth succinctly on July 4, 1821: "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

Fabrication, derived from statement (not enclosed in quotation marks, not documented with footnotes) from John Wingate Thornton, The Pulpit of the American Revolution 1860; thus, it reads as the author's own interpolation of Adams's beliefs, not as a direct quotation from Adams. This cannot be found among the known writings of John Quincy Adams. Citation notes derived from Wayne Aiken, "'Christian Revisionism' -- Distorting the Historical Record for Religious Ends"


f anyone can read what you posted about George Washington and still proclaim him a deist, then proof means nothing and the argument will go on. Also, anyone can post one comment out of context such as the Jefferson letter that gave his thoughts and has been misconstrued.

Can you show us one statement from this quote that is against the Deist beliefs? As for the Jefferson letter – see above

Most Deists believe that God created the universe, "wound it up" and then disassociated himself from his creation. Some refer to Deists as believing in a God who acts as an absentee landlord or a blind watchmaker. A few Deists believe that God still intervenes in human affairs from time to time. They do not view God as an entity in human form.

Deists believe that

One cannot access God through any organized religion, set of belief, ritual, sacrament or other practice.

God has not selected a chosen people (e.g. Jews or Christians) to be the recipients of any special revelation or gifts.

Deists deny the existence of the Trinity as conceived by Christians.

They may view Jesus as a philosopher, teacher and healer, but not as the Son of God.

They believe that miracles do not happen.

The "world operates by natural and self-sustaining laws of the creator."
A practical morality can be derived from reason without the need to appeal to religious revelation and church dogma.

Deists pray, but only to express their appreciation to God for his works. They generally do not ask for special privileges, or try to assess the will of God through prayer.

People usually believe what they want to and no amount of proof will satisfy them.

That is absolutely true – and it works both ways. For as many sources as you can find that say one thing - I can find another that says the opposite.

[cat39]

Further proof that the founding fathers intented separation of church and state can be found in the Treaty of Tripoli:

Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given.

However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation.

Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature.

Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11.

Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).
Although the Christian exclusionary wording in the Treaty of Tripoli only lasted for eight years and no longer has legal status, it clearly represented the feelings of our Founding Fathers at the beginning of the U.S. government.

The Framers derived an independent government out of Enlightenment thinking against the grievances caused by Great Britain. Our Founders paid little heed to political beliefs about Christianity. The 1st Amendment stands as the bulkhead against an establishment of religion and at the same time insures the free expression of any belief. The Treaty of Tripoli, an instrument of the Constitution, clearly stated our non-Christian foundation. We inherited common law from Great Britain which derived from pre-Christian Saxons rather than from Biblical scripture.

Fortunately, most liberal Christians today agree with the principles of separation of church and State, just as they did in early America.

"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point" -Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

[Christmas]

I left out that Thomas Jefferson and I were brother and sister and he told me all his secrets and I was his partner so.......It is this:

He loved God.

He loved Country

He was another mighty man.

AND, I am a scientist perfecting cloning. I am going to dig up all the patriots.....my pick.......get some dna and we are going to start all over again.

I'm a yankee doodle dandy, a yankee doodle do or do.
A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam
Born on the fourth of July!


Andrew Jackson and John Q. Adams are great candidates for my research.

[cat39]

hmmmm -

In a letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787, he wrote, "Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

In a letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 25 June 1819, he wrote, "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

None of which is to say he did not love God or country.

[cat39]

And why not clone Abe Lincoln while you are at it - another great man

[Christmas]

Cat, he is on my list.

You do have spunk.......

I like that.

[Christmas]

I still think we need to clone George.


> I am awed by Washington's prayer for America. Have you never
> read it? Well, now is your unique opportunity, so read on!
>
> "Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep
> the United States in Thy holy protection; that Thou wilt incline the
> hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and
> obedience to government; and entertain a brotherly affection and love
> for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United States at
> large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to
dispose
> us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with
that
> charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the
> characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and
> without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can
never
> hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee,
> through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."
>
> Laus Deo!
>
> When one stops to observe the inscriptions found in public

[cat39]

christmas - I agree, george would be a great person to clone - even though people take liberties with his quotes to make him appear to be what they want him to be. The "Prayer for America" email circulating is an urban legend

http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/monument.asp

The words are inscribed on a bronze tablet adjoining the Washington pew in St. Paul's chapel in New York City, but they are not "Washington's prayer for America." They are taken from the last paragraph of a circular letter dated 8 June 1783, addressed to the governors of the thirteen states by General Washington upon his disbanding of the Continental Army. Although Washington's letter did contain references to God, the paragraph cited has been removed from its original context and modified to make it sound as if it were composed as a stand-alone prayer. (In Washington's time the term "earnest prayer" also meant "earnest wish," not necessarily a prayer in a literal sense.)

Compare the original and modified versions:
ORIGINAL:

Now I make it my earnest prayer that God would have you and the State over which you preside, in His holy protection, that He would incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government, to entertain brotherly affection and love for one another, for their fellow citizens and the United States at large, and particularly for their brethren who have served in the field, and finally, that He would most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion and without an humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. I have the honor to be, with much esteem and respect, Sir, your Excellency's most obedient and most humble servant. George Washington.


MODIFIED:

Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States in Thy holy protection; that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; and entertain a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of the United states at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without a humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

[cat39]

Here are the reasons why I would clone George Washington:

A Presbyterian minister, Arthur B. Bradford, who was an associate of Ashbel Green, another Presbyterian minister who had known George Washington personally, wrote that Green, "often said in my hearing, though very sorrowfully, of course, that while Washington was very deferential to religion and its ceremonies, like nearly all the founders of the Republic, he was not a Christian, but a Deist."

Like truly intelligent people in all times and places, Washington realized how very little we know about life and the workings of the universe. He wrote that the ways of Providence were "inscrutable." Yet he DID the very best he could in all aspects of his life. When things were dark and it looked like the Revolution would be lost, he never gave up. Even when people in his own ranks were turning on him and trying to sink him he persevered because of his deep heartfelt Deistic belief in Providence.

George Washington coupled his genuine belief in Providence with action. After the American defeat at Germantown in 1777 he said, "We must endeavor to deserve better of Providence, and, I am persuaded, she will smile on us." He also wrote that we should take care to do our very best in everything we do so that our, "reason and our own conscience approve."

Washington's toleration for differing religions was made evident by his order to the Continental Army to halt the observance of Pope's Day. Pope's Day was the American equivalent of Guy Fawkes' Day in England. A key part of Pope's Day was the burning of the effigy of the Pope. In his order, Washington described the tradition as, "ridiculous and childish" and that there was no room for this type of behavior in the Continental Army.

The altruism and integrity that Washington possessed is made evident by his restraint in his personal gains. At the successful conclusion of the American Revolution he could have made himself dictator for life. Or he could have allowed others to make him king. Yet, like the Roman General Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus before him, Washington refused to do either.

http://www.deism.com/washington.htm

Truly a great man!

[Christmas]

In your life time can you name the men in your particular world that you were drawn to according to their lives "as lived" and their virtues or selflessness.

Who were they and what it is that drew you to them.

Start with first memories to today.

[Joyous]

Daddy
Honesty, common sense, love of family, hard working, thrifty, God fearing (That's how it was said in those days)

All my uncles were made from this mold and admired by all.

My brothers follow quite a bit like Daddy.

My "Himself" who can do anything, make something from nothing, who is the person I would choose to be with me if I was in a fix, who is always there for me.

My sons who are growing into very admirable men.

[Shar]

Mainly I wanted to get that sales pitch by sdfgsdfg off the board..:rolleyes: but surely I can reply to Christmas post if I think a little even though as old as I am there must be quite a few .

1. My father.
(a) He taught us to work and if we didn't like the job he gave us his comment was, if you don't like this job, learn to do a job you do like because a person that never learns to work is at the mercy of having to do anything to eat. I hated chopping cotton. I sure learned to do other things but also he said just living in a world gives you many jobs you don't care for so do it well no matter what it is.
(b) Never lie. He said, no one trusts someone that does not tell the truth. One thing impressed me the way he put it, he said you will probably be punished if you have done something that you should not have, but if you tell the truth about it you will always be believed no matter what the circumstances are. I thought he was a little silly when he said this but I now know what he meant. He said if, you came to the door, with blood on your hands, a person was lying in the street bleeding and you said I didn't do anything to him but was trying to stop the bleeding when I found him, that no matter how it looked to others, he would believe and help anyone to prove it because they could be trusted to tell the truth. That impressed me! His brothers all had the same ethics and one time when my father and his brother had a disagreement when I was about 24, my uncle said, I think you are wrong but Shar was here and I will go with what she says the situation is. I hated to be put on the spot..but I had to tell my uncle that he had said something in the heat of the argument and my father was right. My uncle grew to 8 ft tall when he said, ok, I don't remember it, but if she said I said that, then I apologize and I accept it. What an example they all were.
(c) My father and my uncles, always said I love you. They weren't "mushy" about it as I would have run like a house on fire if they were, but they gave hugs and always said a job well done. We grow up to do the same things I think if we have those role models.

2. A VP I worked for in the hotel business named Jim Ford. He always took time to listen to anyones ideas or complaints. He never said no or yes without explaining why he said either. To have a reason stated when you get a no answer not only teaches you why you won't do something that particular way, it tells you why it didn't work. He was open to any new ideas and usually gave you the go ahead and try it and supported you. He was very kind but not weak and was a role model when I became regional sales manager with 29 employees to oversee. I still was able to go to him with problems and kept in touch with he and his wife for many years. It is nice when a role model becomes a valued friend.

3. Gene showed up "out of the blue" after my being single for many years. He was a surprise that I hadn't anticipated!! He is kind and I still am amazed at how well he deals with people. I listen to him talk to customers on the phone, hear him talk to his children and grandchildren when I probably would be quite irritated at them. Not him, he handles it and all look at him and say, you are right Dad, I didn't see it that way. Now, just how lucky can you be to have "accidently" found someone like that? The Lord had a big hand in it I believe. Both of us have had to make some changes as living alone does tend to cause you to become a bit self centered I think. We still struggle in some areas but that doesnt last long and I must admit, it is because he overlooks so much. Who could keep on insisting they are right when someone understands how you feel, tells you so and it smacks you right in the nose that, in that instance, you were wrong? sigh...but the best....he takes a while, but he admits when he sees he was wrong...

**There are many more men that have made a great impact in my life over the years...one that called and asked me to do a job that opened up the field where women had not worked previously. Gave me complete support daily and taught me so much. Made me look like a shining star when I would not have been without his advice. Another that made sure I was paid as much as the men working for a company when I did the same work and he went against his superiors to do that. I would have died before I let him down. A pastor that said, "come let's study because I want you to lead a group now and then start vacation Bible Schools in some outlying areas." That took faith on his part and he never hesitated. I didn't have that confidence but he did.

Maybe what first draws us to someone is kindness and then the confidence they seem to have in us that we can do something we never thought of doing? At least that seems to be what drew me to those people above as I re-read what I wrote..and love.

[CallumLikeIseeum]

We haven't heard from Christmas in 2 weeks now. I hope she isn't having trouble logging in. If all else fails, ladies, try a new alias.

[Christmas]

this irritating machine says you are "are logged in".

then when I try to reply I get the message.......I am not logged in and then I generally need a new password.....it seems like the powers that be would not want to fool with a constant changing to new passwords.

Anyway........I AM HERE. We went out of town unexpectedly. Unexpectedly is the general operating procedure for greenjeans. After 50 years I should be accustomed to the way he operates but I would rather just FUSS.

My grand daughter, Natalie is bribing me with a back rub in order to be taken to Starbucks. Starbucks is a good company from whom to purchase stock.
Really, in the five minutes I waited for her 19 people left carrying cups of coffee at minimum of 4.75....minimum!

I don't like the stuff. I love the grand daughter so I am off to Starbucks.

I woool b bak!

[CallumLikeIseeum]

I LOVE the stuff, Christmas!!! Carmel Frap for me,please.

I am with you on this logging in nonsense. I don't know how you managed to keep your same alias. I've tried everything six ways to Sunday and it won't let me use my orignal alias but I'm sure you know who is writing from South Florida and harvesting homegrown tomatoes. I made a big pot of butter beans the other day. What with the fresh tomatoes my son thought he'd died and gone to heaven. :)