Where are the good christians?

[jasmine]

I know there are one or two who post in this forum, and they are easy to spot, but they seem to be out numbered by the other variety. what's the difference between the two groups? well, this reporter says is better than i ever could.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/04/06/notes040605.DTL&nl=fix

[sunnyside]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[louie the laig break]

*Good* and true Christians are few and far between..Most that I know are judgmental and narrow-minded.
30+ years ago I got tangled up with the Baptists for while and we had one pastor that was one of truest Christians I've known.

He preached this:
1. Any man is capable of any sin at any time.
2. The baptist church is NOT the way to eternal life...Following Jesus is.
3. There is nothing more evil than the heart..
a. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,
fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
4. Do not judge others, all this does is to push them from accepting the
Gospel.

[sunnyside]

Louie - he was a good teacher. Good stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Maybe those who aren't good and true Christians, either never were, or on the other hand, are just basic Christians who've not advanced in learning and wisdom?

[jasmine]

A healthy-minded Christian would never blow up anything! There are nuts, fruits and flakes everywhere. To say that the bomber of an abortion clinic did it because he was a Christian, is foolish indeed. Only deranged people do such things. How many times have we read that a child was murdered by a parent because God told him/her to do it? Those things aren't God, or Christianity, it is mental illness, and psychological breaks.

And yet so many Christians insist that those Islamic terrorists attacked the U.S. for no other reason than because they were Muslims.

Of course the writer of that piece is not a Christian - he is only putting into words what many non-christians think about the different types of people who call themselves Christian, then behave in the most un-Christian ways possible.

Christians would do well to heed what non-christians think about their behavior if they are truly interested in turning the entire world to Christianity.... same with the Muslims. The old saying that you catch more flies with honey applies here.

[anna7]

...sorry, folks but this whole topic is erroneous. The title is called "Where are the Good Christians?". The fact is...there is no such thing as a good Christian. Christians are sinners just like anyone else. They are tempted by satan just as everyone is. The only difference is that the Christian is forgiven and will be able to enter heaven despite their sins because they are believers that Christ already paid their punishment for them on the cross. It's that simple. So don't expect Christians to be perfect just because they're Christians.

...also, there are different levels of obedience to God...but just because one person is more disobedient than another does not mean he is not forgiven nor will he lose his gift of heaven. As long as he is a believer he is forgiven. Now, if someone sins the same sin over and over again or he doesn't produce any fruit (telling people the spiritual truth) and is continually disobedient to God, then that is an indication that he POSSIBLY was never a Christian to begin with....but only God knows that.

[Uncle Fred]

Even in Forums and in Chat, I have found that "good Christians" are invariably gullible, arrogant, self-righteous and judgemental.

" There is no confusion in me about any of that. I can talk to Him in the same way I talk to you, too.
I am, without question, absolutely, positively sure …… "

superiority and chauvinism
belittling,hatefulness and hate-mongering.
who has put up with your painful existence for years?
You'd be crying for your mommy and some knockout drops.
your cavalier and chauvinistic attitude,
Boooorish and boring, UFred.
his comments or ragings
critical, or rude, or on the edge of both.
trying to be obnoxious
bent on being argumentative and obtuse.
your argumentative attitude and your inability to stay within context
using your acidic keyboard.
you haven't a clue about anything I wrote.
you rave and rage
complaining and whining
complaining and sounding so superior
complaints and superior attitudes
take a chill pill.

NO MATTER HOW MANY FACTS, figures you record; no matter how intelligent you are ……
I am, without question, absolutely, positively sure, that ……… "

And poor old Sunny is not alone.
Try having a rational, reasoned discussion about religion with "Nashan" some time.
The 'holier-than-thou' attitudes are equalled only by their "christian" venom.

I'll pass, thanks very much.

[sunnyside]

And your excuse for your obnoxious posting is??

[jasmine]

There are no church leaders preaching hatred of other peoples or countries, unless, again, the leaders and the followers are not Christian in the first place.. There are no Christian churches that have training camps to make bombs, breed suicide bombers and plane hijackers, or teaching their children to carry and fire assault rifles and to honor God by killing other people because they aren't Christian.

Guess you don't know about the "Jesus Camp" that is teaching kids to be militant christians.... One of its strongest supporters was Ted Haggard. http://www.apple.com/trailers/magnolia/jesuscamp/trailer/ I understand that once the truth came out about them, there was such a backlash that they closed the camp (or at least moved it out of the public view)

From the leader of the Jesus Camp: It's no wonder, with that kind of intense training and discipling, that those young people are ready to kill themselves for the cause of Islam. I wanna see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I wanna see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth! (prime example of the arrogance of some Christians)

From a Catholic paper published in 2001: All soldiers are called to a particular cause, traditionally the glory of a king, emperor or state. As Catholics soldiers, we are called to fight for the glory of Christ the King and the triumph of His will. We must follow His commandments, receive His sacraments and carry out His directive to convert all nations. (apparently muslims are not the only ones who believe their holy book instructs them to convert everybody in the world)

so I have to disagree with your statement that there are no "christian" churches teaching their people to hate other religions. they do exist - and as it happens, I agree with you that they are not really "christians". But in exactly the same way, those Islamist terrorists who are teaching their kids to hate and kill are not really "muslims" They are all fanatics using a twisted version of major religions to justify their actions.

Even GWB justifies his war against Iraq by saying God ordered him to attack them. Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

the problem is that he didn't "go" himself - he sent thousands of young men and women to fight and die in the name of God.

(so is he a good christian following the orders of "god" or simply another religious fanatic?).

[sunnyside]

Sorry, forgot about that one. Forty lashes with wet spaghetti. Don't have time to read the whole post. Past my bedtime. Goodnight y'all!

[kd]

I had orginally posted this in Simplest Truths. Maybe it fits better here. "The hardest people to reach with the love of God are not the bad people. They know they are bad. They have no defense. The hardest ones to win for God are the self-righteous people. "
Charles L. Allen

[jasmine]

perhaps its because those doing the recruiting come across as self-righteous?

[sunnyside]

perhaps its because those doing the recruiting come across as self-righteous?

Perhaps some do, but not all. As in all other things, some get it right and some are slower in getting it right and some don't ever get it right. We can only hope that it's right at the right time.

:)

[kd]

Jasmine I do not want to sound self-righteous, ever. I think, I feel, I want, I need, I mess up, I hunger, I thirst, I lust, I am Human. Made in his image but not Him. I do not want to shove "religion" upon anyone. We all have a free will given to us. Who am I? I am no one, less than nothing. For isn't that a servants place to be less than the master. I want to be always humble like Jesus. He said to love thy neighbor as thy self. He also said, He who is without sin cast the first stone. When I was lost someone self-righteous said to me ' I will pray for your sinning soul." Now did that person lead me to Christ,no. I said to her,"good I need the prayer, and you need the pratice." So if I sounded self-righteous do forgive me.

[sunnyside]

Jasmine I do not want to sound self-righteous, ever. I think, I feel, I want, I need, I mess up, I hunger, I thirst, I lust, I am Human. Made in his image but not Him. I do not want to shove "religion" upon anyone. We all have a free will given to us. Who am I? I am no one, less than nothing. For isn't that a servants place to be less than the master. I want to be always humble like Jesus. He said to love thy neighbor as thy self. He also said, He who is without sin cast the first stone. When I was lost someone self-righteous said to me ' I will pray for your sinning soul." Now did that person lead me to Christ,no. I said to her,"good I need the prayer, and you need the pratice." So if I sounded self-righteous do forgive me.

KD I don't think she meant that comment for you at all. I think it was just a general question. I shouldn't answer for her, of course, but it's my feeling.
I appreciate your comments, above, and you are right on all counts. However, say not that you're nothing. You are worthy, you are important, and you are loved. He will never think of you as nothing. You and I, and humankind were worthy, important enough and loved enough for Jesus to lay down his life for us , and to take it up again to show us all a better way, and to show us what God is really like. You are worthy, important and loved.
God bless you KD.

[sunnyside]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[pingu]

If you(one) have a personal puerile quarrel with someone PLEASE do not inflict this seemingly endless spitting match on everyone else! Do it privately if you must.

[sunnyside]

If you(one) have a personal puerile quarrel with someone PLEASE do not inflict this seemingly endless spitting match on everyone else! Do it privately if you must.


Excellent comment. You are absolutely right.
We're in agreement because I actually came to the same conclusion this morning, just before I logged on and saw your comment.

I was suddenly reminded of scripture that tells of the necessity to guard against many things, including what the eye sees/reads. In this area, it is negativity.

Allowing negativity to enter through the eyes or the ears does affect a person negatively. In computer circles, it's garbage in, garbage out.

[jasmine]

kd - I did not mean to imply that you were self-righteous. "good" christians generally are not (at least not the ones I would classify as "good"). However, there seems to be a large number of so-called christians in forums who constantly berate non-christians for their non-belief. They feel the need to constantly try to convert even after being told by their target that they are not interested. One of them even told me that if I didn't believe in or respect her god by capitalizing his name, my physical disability would become worse!!

sunnyside - the way to put someone on your "ignore" list .... click on "my profile" at the top of the page. When your profile comes up, scroll down the left side to " discussion prefs." Clicking on that will open a box where you can type in the names you wish to put on your ignore list. That way you don't have to read anything you don't want to see (unless of course someone quotes a post from someone you are ignoring)

[sunnyside]

Jas. Thanks. I'll give it a try. Ok, I tried it 2 different ways. The pay form popped up both times. So, there is no way unless ya pay.

[kd]

I remember when that happened to you Jas, it was not your fault. Maybe Sunny if you see a persons name on a post that you do not care for you could not even go to read it. I know thats sometimes hard to do but may save you some pain.

[jasmine]

Jas. Thanks. I'll give it a try. Ok, I tried it 2 different ways. The pay form popped up both times. So, there is no way unless ya pay.

Interesting - it works for me and I am not a paying member! I know that if you click on "ignore list" instead of "discussion prefs., you will get the pay page. But if you chose the "discussion prefs" first, it should come up with a page that has a control panel on the left. This is the control panel that allows you to add or edit your avatar and/or signature. Under miscellaneous, there is a tab called "buddy/ ignore list" Trying to take any shortcuts will take you to the pay page.. Good luck and if it doesn't work for you, the next best thing is to simply not read any post from the ones you want to ignore...

[sunnyside]

Ok, thanks girls, Jas and KD.

[kd]

Sunny I too have decided to just stick to things like the word game. I think for me its a good way to just avoid any unplesant conflicts. This site is designed for the opertunity to meet people from all over the world, to make friends. Most people here are very kind and had made some good friends so I am blessed.

[sunnyside]

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000

[Punctilious Pete]

In a way, though, Sunnysideup, this is a debating chamber, although people shouldn't resort to ridicule. Rather, they should just put their own points over and wait for a response. I hope you'll keep on contributing here, because I always pay attention to what you have to say. The same goes for KD, of course, now that I understand and appreciate her more.

[sunnyside]

In a way, though, Sunnysideup, this is a debating chamber, although people shouldn't resort to ridicule. Rather, they should just put their own points over and wait for a response. I hope you'll keep on contributing here, because I always pay attention to what you have to say. The same goes for KD, of course, now that I understand and appreciate her more.


Thanks so much Pete. It's nice to hear a supportive word.
The written word is easily misunderstood, & mistranslated.

[kd]

Thanks Pete, you are very kind.

[Joyous]

Sunnyside, you can always add the accepted LOL (Laughing out loud) and almost anyone will know you are making a joke.

Pete is a gem.

[Joyous]

*Good* and true Christians are few and far between..Most that I know are judgmental and narrow-minded.
30+ years ago I got tangled up with the Baptists for while and we had one pastor that was one of truest Christians I've known.

He preached this:
1. Any man is capable of any sin at any time.
2. The baptist church is NOT the way to eternal life...Following Jesus is.
3. There is nothing more evil than the heart..
a. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries,
fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
4. Do not judge others, all this does is to push them from accepting the
Gospel.

Louie, sage advice. It is my understanding that we who accept Christ are to try to be as much like Him as possible. We are to live Christ.
The Gospel plainly tells us that we are not to judge sinners.

[sunnyside]

Sunnyside, you can always add the accepted LOL (Laughing out loud) and almost anyone will know you are making a joke.

Pete is a gem.

Yes, I am familiar with. and do use LOL as well as HAHAHA.
I just prefer Smilies. :) The range of expressions is better.

[sunnyside]

Now, let us return to the program already in progress. ( I learned that from the TV. ) :)

PS. Jasmine, I tried your recipe and I THINK it worked. THanks.
Finis ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Jay Jay]

Belief is in your heart, in the very soul of you, you dont have to share it with others if they do not wish to, it is a personal thing that lives inside you, and if you choose to kill either others or yourself in name of religion, then you are killing the belief inside your heart. Simple fact. Love one another. Jay Jay

[sunnyside]

[00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000000000000

[Joyous]

I have said it before and I will say it once more, if we Christians followed the teachings of Christ, if we keep Him inside us, we will love as He loves. Our life should be a beacon to unbelievers. Mine isn't always, but I am constantly praying to reflect His love more .

[anna7]

...well said, joyous.

...there is no such thing as a good Christian as this topic title implies. Christians are sinners just like anyone else. All Christians admit they have a sin nature and in need of a savior. They are tempted just as everyone is.

...they are forgiven because they believe in a savior. If they sin the same sin over and over again then that is a red flag that perhaps they never meant it in their hearts when they said they believed...but that's only God's judgement call...not ours.

[nashan]

One of my members posted the following picture for today. I thought some of you might enjoy it.


Oops I will have to see if I can get the picture to copy. Sorry.

[nashan]

OK I found out the problem. The picture is too large for an attachment here.

It was a picture of Jesus.

Sorry that I could not post it.

[OneSG]

..........

[nashan]

Very nice poem OneSG.

Also, your comment brings a question to mind. In Isaiah 53 we find many predictions concerning Jesus. One was of His death. The prediction was proven true when Jesus died. Does this not mean He would have died for man regardless of who caused it? Actually, I feel certain that sin itself was the reason He died therefore; all sinners are responsible. I am thankful He did this so we who want everlasting life can have it.

[sunnyside]

In my opinion, the historical reason or persons responsible for Jesus' death are unimportant, except to explain the historical events that worked toward his sacrifice. His death was foretold, and had to play out in whatever way it had to happen. IF it hadn't played out the way it did, it would have been another way.

Unfortunately, many have hated Jews for years, because it was felt they were responsible for Jesus' death. The haters were misguided, and totally missed the point. It was never about who, or what led to his death, it has always been the why of his death.

The point is, that no-one TOOK His life from Him. HE made the sacrifice. He LAID DOWN HIS LIFE -- for us.

The why was HIS sacrifice for the way of salvation for the human race. It was the time for the entry of God's grace for the human race.
The focus should be on those things.

... ( I think this should be discussed in another thread,or a new thread, since this thread began with a negative posting about Christianity. The title of this thread needs to drop to the bottom and not brought up again.)

[Uncle Fred]

... ( I think this should be discussed in another thread,or a new thread, since this thread began with a a NEGATIVE posting about Christianity.
The title of this thread needs to drop to the bottom and not brought up again.)
REALLY ?!
It seems that you may not have READ the original post - or at least may not have followed the link which it provided.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/04/06/notes040605.DTL&nl=fix
"Where Are The Good Christians?
The fanatics and nutjobs now running the show sure give honest believers a bad name
By Mark Morford
I know they're out there.
I forget, often, too often, just how many there are but I know they exist in much larger numbers than you might be led to believe by current spiritually embarrassing headlines ......
They are the decent Christians.
They are the calm, morally progressive, compassionate, open-hearted Jesus-loving folk who don't really give a damn for archaic church dogma or pious noise or sanctimonious candlelight vigils, for repressing women or bashing gays or slamming Islam and, in fact, turned to Christianity precisely because they believe these things are abhorrent and wrong and, well, anti-Christian."

It might be interesting to hear why you feel such ideas should not be discussed, Sunnyside.

[sunnyside]

I guess you chose not to notice what my post IS about.

It was not about the original posting at al, but my
mentioning it was actually a Post Script, you know....a PS? I even put it in parentheses.

But just FYI
I read it a long time ago. My opinion: The guy is narrow in his view, doesn't know enough, and made some really dumb statements. He's an amateur show. Probably not a Christian either. Being on the outside looking in, does have its disadvantages.

If you'll note, nowhere did I say it shouldn't be discussed. It WAS discussed, ad nauseam, already, already, already.

I wrote a lot more in responding to your post today but deleted it, and I'm kicking myself for wasting the time.
I decided that I'm not going back to start over on an old post. It's a time-waster, just as this post to you is a time-waster. You want to take a PS and make an issue out of it?
How like you, that is. I'm not interested.
The topic was discussed, and as for me, enough is enough.

[Uncle Fred]

........ The title of this thread needs to drop to the bottom and not brought up again.
" nowhere did I say it shouldn't be discussed "
No, just sneakily hidden away because Sunnyside is tired of it or simply cannot follow the reasoning.

"Probably not a Christian either."
Who cares ?
Does that mean he can have nothing worthwhile to say ?


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/03/05/notes030508.DTL
I reckon the guy makes a LOT of sense.

So THERE !

[sunnyside]

You're entitled to your opinion on the writer, and his narrow opinions, and I'm entitled to mine. Checkmate.

[Joyous]

Uncle Fred, a lot of what the article states makes sense. I have found not a single religion that I can totally agree with. In the Adventist Church, I find more that I can agree with, so I choose to worship there. Of course I worship where ever I am, but as a place to meet with fellow Christians, that is the place I choose. # 1 because I find them to be loving and Jesus taught that we are to love, not just our friends, but also our enemies. Hard for me, but that's what He taught.
#2 because I believe we are to keep the commandments and Sabbath keeping is a commandment. Even there, I am not perfect at it, so I have to be forgiving of those who do not.
We all know sin when we see it or when it entices us, so we should reject it. We all fail sometimes. If we think it, feel it inside us, we need to put it away from our heart and mind.
A Christian should not put their faith in a denomination, but in Almighty God.

[sunnyside]

88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 8888888888888

[Joyous]

Sunnyside, I have read some of Ellen G. White's books. I do not follow the teachings of any person save those of Jesus my Savior. Okay, the Gospel, the Scripture. Where E.G. White referenced Scripture for her teachings, I paid attention. She is not my Lord.

[sunnyside]

The 7th Day Adventist Church is based on her teachings.
The 7th Day Adventists are considered a cult. They have added to and diverted things in the Bible, because she said so. The Bible says not to add to , or to take away from IT.

The rule of thumb is, if a church teaches error, get out of it, no matter how nice the people are.
Unless, of course, you agree with the teachings on every point.
That's all I'll say on the subject.

[jasmine]

I saw a bumper sticker I can really get behind today. Unfortunately, I cannot post it because I can't find a way - It spells out " Coexist" with peace sign, yin yang, and various religious symbols. You can see it here:

http://store.sundancesolar.com/coexist.html

Interesting that this site claims it is their best selling bumper sticker so there must be a few folks out there who feel as I do. Keep your religion but coexist peacefully with those who see things from a different point of view.

[sunnyside]

It's a neat looking sticker.
That's right, that's what religious freedom is all about in this country. We do coexist. I'm not sure how long that will last, if Islamic radicals get their way.

It behooves us who believe in the Bible, as it is, and who have faith in what Jesus did for us, and many other important things written in the Bible, to be able to discern and not fall into error, or fall into neat traps.

Anyone who displays such a sticker, certainly believes in religious freedom, but not much else.
A Christian would not advertise Eastern religions or cults, or Islam, etc. , such as this sticker includes.
No matter how neat the sticker is, no matter how neat the artwork, I would NOT put it on my car.

[OneSG]

..........

[OneSG]

..........

[sunnyside]

I would love to coexist but some won't have it.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d9_1206624103

The man who made Fitna, the Movie, Geert Wilders, is in a peck of trouble. The movie is interesting and informative. Look up the info about the movie and the fallout, on Widipedia. Lots of info there.

Fitna is an Arabic word which means disagreement and division among people; or test of faith in time of trial.

If only those with their heads in the sand, would pull them out.
Another website that one may find interesting is www.thereligionofpeace.com

[louie the laig break]

The man who made Fitna, the Movie, Geert Wilders, is in a peck of trouble. The movie is interesting and informative. Look up the info about the movie and the fallout, on Widipedia. Lots of info there.

Fitna is an Arabic word which means disagreement and division among people; or test of faith in time of trial.

If only those with their heads in the sand, would pull them out.
Another website that one may find interesting is www.thereligionofpeace.com

I watched that 15 minute movie today and it is very spooky indeed. Those people truely do hate westerners. They especially call out their hate of the UK and America and Israel.

If mr hussein is even remotely attuned to that ideology, we are in a heap a trouble!

Nothing is a bigger threat to world continuance than a religious nut.

[jasmine]

I would love to coexist but some won't have it.


Hate is a two-way street - One has to have love and respect in their own hearts if they expect it from others. You have made your hatred of Muslims and your disrespect for women abundantly clear. Why would you expect them to love or respect you?

[jasmine]

louie - balance in what you view is always good. Try this site and tell me you believe this woman hates Americans and is out to blow us all up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuSMeUVwO40. There are extremists in every country, and in most religions - including the Christian variety of wackos. There are good Muslims, just as there are good Christians.

[Bettina]

Thank you for the URL Jasmine. I watch Glen Beck as often as I can. Didn't you have a video on his program last year on Islam extremists? I cannot seem to find it .

[OneSG]

..........

[sunnyside]

ONESg, you're referring to Islamic extremists and those who support them.

[nashan]

Hate is a two-way street - One has to have love and respect in their own hearts if they expect it from others. You have made your hatred of Muslims and your disrespect for women abundantly clear. Why would you expect them to love or respect you?


So, is ignoring someone considered a form of hate? I think Jasmine must hate me because she put me on ignore. Someone should ask her that for if she does have me on ignore she will not see this post. Wonder what I did to her to recieve such treatment as being ignored? Do I not have rights here as any other poster? I am truly concerned about this. I don't want anyone to hate me. There is enough hate in this world I sure don't want to add to it by someone hating me.

[sunnyside]

Nash-
In my personal opinion, she doesn't hate you, she hates what you write.
That's easy to figure out since she is agnostic/atheist. She has a great deal of anger, it seems, against Christians, generally speaking.

Let them think what they want. The opinions of your family, friends, neighbors - the ones who know you and love you best have some opinions to value. God's opinion is of most value.

[Uncle Fred]

http://www.kuna.net.kw/Home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=1083899
Louise Arbour condemns the film "Fitna"
GENEVA, March 28 (KUNA)
" The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Louise Arbour said Friday that she joins in the condemnation,
as expressed by the Secretary-General and the three UN Special Rapporteurs,
of the tone and content of the film 'Fitna' by Dutch Geert Wilders....... "

Geert Wilders is a far-right-wing POLITICIAN hoping to capitalize on the fear and hatred felt by some "Christians" (and others) when faced with the dark side of Islam.
No matter how miniscule the proportion of radical Muslims might be or how much it is reflected in similar measure amongst radical christians.

Frankly, I'd remove the heads of three Muslims, four Christians and half a dozen cats WITH MY TEETH
for Wilders' magnificent head of hair !

[anna7]

Frankly, I'd remove the heads of three Muslims, four Christians and half a dozen cats WITH MY TEETH
for Wilders' magnificent head of hair !
uncle fred....this is a perfect example of the level of hatred you show in this Forum as was just discussed today in the "Sunny to Nash" topic (post181-post190) and, no, i didn't find your comment amusing....and by the way...people who hate cats will come back in their next life as a mouse...lol.

nashan...jasmine told me she has me on ignore too and then posted a reply to what i posted just now

[sunnyside]

What else could they do. It does show the dark side of Islam. We can't have THAT, now can we.

[ QUOTE] No matter how miniscule the proportion of radical Muslims might be or how much it is reflected in similar measure amongst radical christians.[ QUOTE]

I haven't seen many Christians lately who are slitting throats, blowing up the leaders of their country, stoning women, filling mass graves, and threatening to take over the world .

If there were MORE radical true Christians, there would be some changes for the better in this country.

Oh, I forgot you're living in paradise, in which there are no problems and from which people are escaping.

When will you be buying a new soap box? The one you're on is rather tattered.

[sunnyside]

uncle fred....this is a perfect example of the level of hatred you show in this Forum as was just discussed today in the "Sunny to Nash" topic (post181-post190) and, no, i didn't find your comment amusing....and by the way...people who hate cats will come back in their next life as a mouse...lol.

nashan...jasmine told me she has me on ignore too and then posted a reply to what i posted just now

Anna, I don't think it's hatred at all. Let's call it what it is..... bad judgment, lack of social grace, lack of compassion, and childish sarcasm. Now, he thinks he's funny.

I wish he had a head of hair too, it would make it less painful when he bangs his head against the wall. :) Just Kidding!

[jasmine]

It is not only me they hate and would like to kill. It is all the Jews, the UK, the US, all Christians and anyone who aint a Muslim.

But what you can't seem to get your mind around is that not all Muslims fall into the extremist category. Just like all Christians don't fit into the fanatic category. You tend to paint everyone with the same brush with no discernment at all. There are as many types of Muslims as there are Christians - though I realize you think only those with your beliefs are real Christians.

[jasmine]

nashan...jasmine told me she has me on ignore too and then posted a reply to what i posted just now

------------------------

you were on my ignore list for a while when you were on your high horse over something or another. I eventually took you off, and you are still off for the present. Nashan, however will remain there along with sunnyside......

[nashan]

Well, I see not everyone is on Jasmine's "ignore" list.

[nashan]

high horse??? I am alergic to horses so I would not be on a "high" or any other kind.

[anna7]

...uncle fred...i confess that i did not watch the video posted...and i won't because i have to protect my eyes from negativity as it stays with me forever...but i do know that making jokes about the Muslim Jihad practice of beheading non-muslims is not a joking matter to say the least...it's sick.

[OneSG]

..........

[jasmine]

onesg - I'm not a fan of square dancing - don't like the music. As for howling at the moon? LOL only on rare occasions. Sometimes its good to let off a little steam.

[OneSG]

..........

[louie the laig break]

SO...Are we saying that in that film, the *thousands* of mudslimes that are screaming for our heads are not to be taken seriously??
Hey I know...Maybe it's another right-wing conspiracy to generate fear..:)

[Uncle Fred]

Yep !
Very bloody likely.

And whilst there are those who use terms like "mudslimes"
there is little hope.

[OneSG]

..........

[sunnyside]

Gonnnnnnne:)

[sunnyside]

Wow, wonderful, superb! It made the national news. A peaceful Muslim. If what you have been telling me that it is the minority that make up the other faction these peaceful ones should be found on every street corner and not make the national news when one is found.

BTW it could be propaganda. They have no compunction in lying to a none believer don'tchaknow.


I agree. Moderate Muslims should be making the news on a weekly basis. They should speak loud and long, their disagreement with Muslim Extremists. They should speak loud and long about their condemnation of what the radicals are doing, both to people and to their religion.

One small voice, and a 100 demonstrators is nice, but not nearly enough. Maybe the movement will grow. I hope so.

(Yes, it is true that the Quran tells them they are under no obligation to honor contracts or promises to non Muslims/Islamists. So, doesn't it make you feel creepy about treaties and other agreements they may sign ?) )

[louie the laig break]

Yep !
Very bloody likely.

And whilst there are those who use terms like "mudslimes"
there is little hope.

Aww did I poke fun at your relatives? haha Sorry old bean.

[OneSG]

..........

[louie the laig break]

He aint an old bean he's a cobber.


I'm not familiar with the term "cobber"..

There are a couple of "visuals" that come to mind but I'm sure they are wrong. :)

[OneSG]

..........

[Desperate Dan]

I disagree, OneSG. To an Englishman, any man can be an old bean, even a grumpy old fart like Fred.

[louie the laig break]

Hello cobber is an Australian greeting to a male. Hello Sheila is an Australian greeting to a wimmin. Hello old bean is and English greeting. Fred is not English so the "old bean" would not apply to him.


Thank you oneSG.
Here a cobber would have something to do with corn cobs. Pipes maybe :)

I put 2 and 2 together and it added up to 5..

Hey Dan - is Fred old? I never noticed. haha

[OneSG]

..........

[OneSG]

..........

[louie the laig break]

1945 vintage I think. Could be 1946.


haha He's not old...I was in school dropping pencils then. :)

[Uncle Fred]

Could we drop the bloody and the whilst?
I DON'T LIKE the words Bloody and whilst either, but I don't make a point of it....

Gee I'm pleased you don't "make a point of it", Sunnyside.
OTHERWISE, some wise person might suggest that you
" Worry less about someone's wording, and worry more about what's really happening today."

[Uncle Fred]

In the meantime, you're missing the point of this whole discussion about radical Muslims while zeroing in on the language

Indeed. (Who prattled on about 'bloody' and 'whilst' ?)

"The rads are out to slit your throat, Freddie, and if you should go to places where Westerners, Christians and Jews are in danger, you'll find out."
I reckon there are heaps of places occupied by " Westerners, Christians and Jews " where the average moderate, harmless, pious Muslim would feel more than a mite worried walking down the street.


"....just remember all those, other than soldiers, who have lost their lives because they were a Westerner in the wrong place at the wrong time--killed by radical Muslims."
Just remember all those HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, other than soldiers, who have been maimed or murdered by American-led bombings, mines, missiles and sanctions.
Women, children, babies, old folk - who posed not the slightest possible threat to the USA or anyone else.
Talk about RADICAL !!!

[Desperate Dan]

Yes but it would be a greeting from an Englishman. If one was trying to emulate a persons nationality one would use the greeting from that persons country. In Freds case he should have been refered to as "cobber" and I would be refered to as "old bean." Right...my old bean?
Fur enough. OneSG, but we're agreed, then, that he's a grumpy old fart? No need to answer that, OneSG.

[eyes]

Oops! Wrong thread....

[nashan]

Oops! Wrong thread....


Nah eyes....you got the right one.

[louie the laig break]

Nah eyes....you got the right one.

How dare you judge her? haha just kidding

[jasmine]

onesg - I could point you to many more reports of Muslim groups that have spoken out againt the terrorists, but if you were in the least bit interested, you would look them up yourself. Try this site for links to a few of them. http://www.muhajabah.com//otherscondemn.php . They don't make the news because the public prefers the other side of news. Feel good and happy stories generally do not make the 10 o'clock news. When they do, folks like you loudly proclaim them to be "propaganda" or "lies" and dismiss them.

Did you happen to catch this story on the BBC a couple years ago? Or did you turn it off and label it propaganda? "Islamic leaders across Birmingham have issued a joint message against terrorism in a bid to tackle mistrust of Muslims in the UK." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm

Like GWB you seem to believe that all Muslims are the same.... sort of like some believe all Christians are the same. Bush, at least, has come to realize the error of his ways on this particular point (at least publically). Should we lump you in with the Catholics? The Mormons? The southern Baptists? Charles Manson? Jim Jones? Adolf Hitler? Like you, they all believe(d) in the Bible. But some of us know there is as much variety in the beliefs of Muslims as there are in those of Christians.

[anna7]

...i'm curious, jasmine. Why are you so obsessed with Muslims and then you claim you're not a Muslim? I mean you are constantly posting muslim this and muslim that. Okay, tell me this...why AREN"T you a muslim

[OneSG]

..........

[sunnyside]

PER FRED _____ remember all those HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS, other than soldiers, who have been maimed or murdered by American-led bombings, mines, missiles and sanctions.
Women, children, babies, old folk - who posed not the slightest possible threat to the USA or anyone else.
Talk about RADICAL !!![/QUOTE]

As always you switch it all to your own problematical opinion.

America is not trying to take over the world, while it is the goal of Radical Muslims/Islamists.
POINT:
You wanna go without petrol for quite awhile? If the rads get their hands on the oil in any of those oil-producing countries, you better get your bicycle out of storage and get out your saw to cut wood, or find a supply of coal. If you are able to buy petrol, it will be sky high.

Question: When they come to desolate your country, upon whom would you call?

[sunnyside]

Gee I'm pleased you don't "make a point of it", Sunnyside.
OTHERWISE, some wise person might suggest that you
" Worry less about someone's wording, and worry more about what's really happening today."

LOL That was an example to follow what you wrote. You're a great twister.

YOU were the one who made a point of wording and not the subject. I merely pointed that out in my post. Do you ever read anything without twisting it?

[Uncle Fred]

Ok, how many lives were lost, including women, children, and old folks, how many women and girls were raped, and/or killed and maimed by the Germans and the Japanese. ........
Tired reading yet?
Bloody oath, mate !

Interesting to see you compare American atrocities in the Middle East with the actions of the Germans and Japanese in WW2.
I couldn't agree more. VERY SIMILAR.

[sunnyside]

Bloody oath, mate !

Interesting to see you compare American atrocities in the Middle East with the actions of the Germans and Japanese in WW2.
I couldn't agree more. VERY SIMILAR.

Keep your bloody and your oath. Don't call me mate. I'm not your mate.

It was not a comparison, but an attempt to remind you of all the things that have happened due to other governments, which you seem to have forgotten, and never point out, even the current ones. You refuse to 'get it'.

You're an expert at twisting. Your focus is always what's wrong with America. It shows absolute wearing of blinders. You see what you want to see, and you twist it to fit your brand of hatred toward America. You're a hopeless mental crank on the subject.

Upon whom will you (Australia) call when they come for you?

[jasmine]

onesg - then I am sure you would love FOX news here with its extreme bias toward the right wingnuts, the religious zealots (Christian of course), and the warmongering politicians. Just sounds like your kinda news, biased in the same direction you so strongly lean. I listen to it occasionally, hoping for a glimmer of fairness, but am mostly disappointed. There are always two (or more) sides to any story - sometimes it is wiser to listen to both sides, rather than to just the one that fits your preconceived ideas.

BTW being biased does not mean the story was a lie - only that they would broadcast it whereas a more conservative station would refuse to run it because it doesn't fit the idea they want to project and would interfere with their anti-Islamic stories. Since most news stations and even newspapers appear to be biased in one direction or another, the only way to get balanced news anymore is to watch at lease two different stations, so you can get the stories that make you feel righteous as well as those that go against what you want to believe.

Interesting that folks like you are constantly saying that if moderate Muslims are not in agreement with terrorists, why don't they speak out - but when they do speak out those same people don't hear it because it generally only gets broadcast by a station they refuse to watch or a newspaper they refuse to read because it is "biased" So either start paying attention to the other side of the story, or quit whining that moderate Muslims don't exist! They exist in large numbers, you just refuse to learn about them....

[BobK]

How would we recognize a modern day Ephialtes. Most likely there would be denial that radical Islam exists. Peaceful or moderate Islamics ?? Peaceful or moderate IMO really isn't the correct way to identify those that aren't actively engaged in jihad. More like non culpable because they aren't actively participating. Then there are apologists for Islam that deny the religion calls for the eventual extinction of all other religions.

Given how the radicals operate it doesn't surprise me that non culpable may really be living in fear of speaking out and being recognized.

In 1960 there were about 20 mosques in the U S, now there are an estimated 2,300 mosques. Somehow I don't believe all of those are promoting peace and harmony with we infidels. The Quran has a lot of instruction some good but other passages like this that convince me that radical islamics have bad intentions.
Quran Surah 58: She That Disputeth
On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters



Would the average american person understand what was taking place if they observed Islamics practicing devotion to radical principles? I doubt it. Since men have fewer noticiable restrictions it might be easier to spot the female in a family practicing radical islamic dictates.

Here are a few of the restrictions for radical Islam for men.

1.A ban on celebrating any non-Muslim holiday.
2.All people with non-Islamic names would be required to adopt an Islamic name.
3. Prayers at mosques must be attended five times daily.
4. Anyone found with objectionable literature can be executed.
5.No kite flying is allowed.
6.No hand clapping is allowed at sporting events.

Women get bonus restrictions. Some of the more fun radical Islamic dictates include but are not limited to.

1. Banned from working outside the home, except for selected female doctors.
2.Women cannot leave the home unless accompanied by a male relative or husband.
3.They cannot drive a car, deal with shopkeepers.
4.Male doctors cannot treat them.
5.Women must wear undecorated clothing that covers them from head to foot.
6.A woman can be whipped if her ankles show in public.
7.She is banned from shaking hands, laughing loudly, wearing high heeled shoes, playing sports, speaking on radio or TV, riding a bicycle or motorcycle, must not wear perfume.
8. They cannot talk to men other than family and when they do talk it must be in a very low voice. They must not look at strangers.


Please note that the use of radical preceded the word Islamic.

[anna7]

...and once again, jasmine is talking about the good muslims. I have never seen anyone so obsessed with "waving their flag" as you, jasmine, not even the muslims. I have no problem with the peaceful type of muslim myself...although they all seem to have radical muslims in their past generations somewhere...even barack hussein obama does (his grandmother was a radical muslim and she had a part in raising him...now THAT is scary). I don't think you are muslim or you would say you are but what's holding you back?

...i've also noticed you are anti-America even though you say you live here in the usa (sometimes you say you live in the west and sometimes not so i'm not sure where you really live...hmm). You are uncle fred's dream...an anti-American, anti-Christian, who constantly goes on and on about it. He's looking for a new wife by the way...i hope you don't mind that he believes in polygamy and infidelity...whilst having a private problem he admits...lol.

...sorry, bob...we posted only 3 minutes apart and i wish my post hadn't covered yours as yours is excellent. I didn't know you were there.

[nashan]

...and once again, jasmine is talking about the good muslims. I have never seen anyone so obsessed with "waving their flag" as you, jasmine, not even the muslims. I have no problem with the peaceful type of muslim myself...although they all seem to have radical muslims in their past generations somewhere...even barack hussein obama does (his grandmother was a radical muslim and she had a part in raising him...now THAT is scary). I don't think you are muslim or you would say you are but what's holding you back?

...i've also noticed you are anti-America even though you say you live here in the usa (sometimes you say you live in the west and sometimes not so i'm not sure where you really live...hmm). You are uncle fred's dream...an anti-American, anti-Christian, who constantly goes on and on about it. He's looking for a new wife by the way...i hope you don't mind that he believes in polygamy and infidelity...whilst having a private problem he admits...lol.

...sorry, bob...we posted only 3 minutes apart and i wish my post hadn't covered yours as yours is excellent. I didn't know you were there.


Way to go Anna! Your post is great and one that I smiled when I read it. But since you feel a bit bad for posting so soon after Bob I am going to quote him as well so his info will be there.

[nashan]

How would we recognize a modern day Ephialtes. Most likely there would be denial that radical Islam exists. Peaceful or moderate Islamics ?? Peaceful or moderate IMO really isn't the correct way to identify those that aren't actively engaged in jihad. More like non culpable because they aren't actively participating. Then there are apologists for Islam that deny the religion calls for the eventual extinction of all other religions.

Given how the radicals operate it doesn't surprise me that non culpable may really be living in fear of speaking out and being recognized.

In 1960 there were about 20 mosques in the U S, now there are an estimated 2,300 mosques. Somehow I don't believe all of those are promoting peace and harmony with we infidels. The Quran has a lot of instruction some good but other passages like this that convince me that radical islamics have bad intentions.
Quran Surah 58: She That Disputeth
On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers (or their mothers, daughters, or sisters



Would the average american person understand what was taking place if they observed Islamics practicing devotion to radical principles? I doubt it. Since men have fewer noticiable restrictions it might be easier to spot the female in a family practicing radical islamic dictates.

Here are a few of the restrictions for radical Islam for men.

1.A ban on celebrating any non-Muslim holiday.
2.All people with non-Islamic names would be required to adopt an Islamic name.
3. Prayers at mosques must be attended five times daily.
4. Anyone found with objectionable literature can be executed.
5.No kite flying is allowed.
6.No hand clapping is allowed at sporting events.

Women get bonus restrictions. Some of the more fun radical Islamic dictates include but are not limited to.

1. Banned from working outside the home, except for selected female doctors.
2.Women cannot leave the home unless accompanied by a male relative or husband.
3.They cannot drive a car, deal with shopkeepers.
4.Male doctors cannot treat them.
5.Women must wear undecorated clothing that covers them from head to foot.
6.A woman can be whipped if her ankles show in public.
7.She is banned from shaking hands, laughing loudly, wearing high heeled shoes, playing sports, speaking on radio or TV, riding a bicycle or motorcycle, must not wear perfume.
8. They cannot talk to men other than family and when they do talk it must be in a very low voice. They must not look at strangers.


Please note that the use of radical preceded the word Islamic.

Thank you for this post Bob!

[sunnyside]

Nashan -- look up 'Taliban' on the web and you can get information on how bad rad can be.

[jasmine]

Bob - thank you for your opinion on moderate vs. non-culpable. Not an opinion I agree with - but then that is the nature of discussion isn't it? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so long as they don't put it forward as truth.....

[OneSG]

..........

[BobK]

Bob - thank you for your opinion on moderate vs. non-culpable. Not an opinion I agree with - but then that is the nature of discussion isn't it? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so long as they don't put it forward as truth.....

I did preface non culpable with IMO. How do you define people that are listening to the teachings of a religion but are doing nothing to identify the radical element within? I identify them as non culpable because they aren't actually participating in how the Quran calls for eliminating all other religions. They aren't legally guilty of murder but they are IMO no differant than the man that caused the Sherrice Iverson Bill to be adopted as law.

One point at a time might be easier to work with. I think it's already been hashed out what the bible calls for and has since been dealt with by civil law. I'd like to stick to now and not go back several centuries.

The Quran calls for this thought to be part of present day thinking. It can be found in the 2nd. chapter under the caption The Cow.

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.


This could get rather long using one point at a time from the Quran. But since America was attacked & war against radical islamics is based on the radicals following the teachings in the Quran it could be helpful to expose step by step why radical islamics do what they do. It could also uncover why the religion has the sneaky provision of assemilating into cultures.

[jasmine]

bob - are we to assume that you know the Quran very well? Do you, for instance know that it is not presented in the order in which it was written? Some Muslims interpret those parts you speak of as having been written for the time and what was happening to the Muslims at that point. Parts of it were written during a time of battle and contains instructions for dealing with what they were facing.

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

These verses are very clear that they are only to fight if they are attacked - it is also clear that if the opponent stops fighting, they should also stop.

The Quran consists of revelations from God to Muhammad over a period of twenty three years (610 C.E. – 632 C.E.). The first 13 years of the prophethood of Muhammad were at his hometown of Makkah (Mecca), where he and his fellow Muslims were severely persecuted by the pagans of Makkah. During that time, Muslims were not ordered to fight back, but bear the persecutions. Finally, God ordered the Prophet and his fellow Muslims (known as Sahabah) to emigrate to the city of Madinah, about 400 kilometers away.

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

The radical Muslims use these and other verses to justify their acts of violence, other Muslims believe they were written only for the time.

"Terrorists have often said they are striking out against their enemies and oppressors "in the name of Allah." But many Islamic scholars say such terrorists are not only violating the spirit of the Koran, but the letter of it as well.

"You do not kill innocent people, you do not cheat, you do not lie, you do not destroy any property of other human beings," says Imam Abdullah Khouj, an Islamic scholar and director of the Islamic Center, in Washington, D.C."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html

I identify them as non culpable because they aren't actually participating in how the Quran calls for eliminating all other religions.

Has it not occurred to you that they are not participating because they do not believe that the Quran calls for any such thing?

[Joyous]

Having always been a person who thinks, I would not remain in a church that taught hatred. I will only attend a church if love is present and promoted.

[nashan]

I heard something interesting recently on the truck radio on the way home from work. Ya'll can take it for what ever it is worth, believe it or not, but it is quite interesting to me. Now, I must admit to you that this was a radio station that was Christian in origin so some of you may want to "scroll on by" if you will. Anyway here is what I heard from a conversation on religious talk radio:

A woman (who was of Muslim descent) had become a Christian a few years back. She was telling the person who was interviewing her that her cousin had been forced to marry a family member when she was only 13 years of age. The family member was over 40 at the time. The father of this girl had arranged the marriage to this family member to keep the marriage in the family. The girl lived in fear of beatings from this man if she did not obey his every whim. After a number of children she could not physically have any more pregnancies. The beatings became more severe until the girl (then an adult at the age of 29) ended her life. Divorce was not an option for her because it is disgraceful for the Muslim women to seek divorcement. Her husband made it so bad for her she felt there was no way out but to end her life.

The woman's cousin, who was telling the interviewer the story, also went on to say, being an ex-Muslim herself, the Quran most people read is NOT the original text because NO ONE is allowed to read the real Quran except the Muslims. Therefore, the text anyone other than a Muslim would be reading, is the text the Muslims want the rest of the world to read.

So........I thought that was an interesting bit of information.

[anna7]

Having always been a person who thinks, I would not remain in a church that taught hatred. I will only attend a church if love is present and promoted.
...very wise, joyous...right on!
...verrrrry interesting post, nashan. I knew the poor treatment of women is sadly true in many cases but i didn't know that about the Quran...deceitful indeed!
...and last but not least, you're posts are some excellent reading, Bobk...keep 'em coming!
.

[Uncle Fred]

...... I would not remain in a church that taught hatred.
Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

AND THAT'S JUST A FEW from the "New" Testament.
The "Old" one, which Yeshua supported, is chock full of admonitions to kill rape and plunder !

[nashan]

As usual, Uncle Freddie is twisting scriptures and taking them out of context. He may be providing the correct words in the scriptures but he is leaving out the complete message of those verses. You can't, at random, pick a verse without reading the verses prior and after to get the full meaning for them.

[Uncle Fred]

By all means, feel free to post the 'before and after' stuff
for any of the above texts
and show us how that additional material
alters the obvious meaning in ANY way.




I see christians quoting isolated verses all the time.
Should we demand the whole chapter - or the whole book - or the whole COLLECTION of myths ?

I have changed nothing. The verses mean what they say.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
However embarrassing that might be for some.

[sunnyside]

Still in his head, not yet in his heart.

[nashan]

By all means, feel free to post the 'before and after' stuff
for any of the above texts
and show us how that additional material
alters the obvious meaning in ANY way.




I see christians quoting isolated verses all the time.
Should we demand the whole chapter - or the whole book - or the whole COLLECTION of myths ?

I have changed nothing. The verses mean what they say.
Nothing more. Nothing less.
However embarrassing that might be for some.

Again, you have missed the point. If you take each of those verses that you quoted and do some history as to why they were written as they were then you would understand the meaning behind them.

[Uncle Fred]

" Still in his head, not yet in his heart."

Yep ! Still rational. Not living in fantasyland.

[Uncle Fred]

Again, you have missed the point. If you take each of those verses that you quoted and do some history as to why they were written as they were then you would understand the meaning behind them.
I think I understand them perfectly Nash.
But I welcome any reasoned explanation from you which will explain why they do NOT mean precisely what they say.
Perhaps you might need to consult with GuruSG first ...... ?

[nashan]

I think I understand them perfectly Nash.
But I welcome any reasoned explanation from you which will explain why they do NOT mean precisely what they say.
Perhaps you might need to consult with GuruSG first ...... ?

No, I think I am entitled to express my opinion. Although SG is a great teacher I can still speak for myself. Is that what you want? If so I must have a bit of time to do so. It is almost bedtime for me and when I am tired I can't give my best to the scriptures. Do you really want me to give my opinion to the verses you quoted? I just don't people thinking I am preaching to them as they have said I have done before. I am not qualified to be a minister.

[Uncle Fred]

Have a big sleep and then I would LOVE to see your explanation.
Not necessarily all three of the verses.
Just pick ONE if you like.
ANY one will do.

In the meantime - if any OTHER Christians would like to have a go ......... ?

[anna7]

Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:34-36 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 14:26...In context of the whole chapter, this is about priorities...Jesus is telling the multitudes that anyone who wants to be His follower must love Him far more than he does his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters...yes, more than his own life...otherwise he cannot be Jesus' disciple.

Matthew 10:21...the very next verse explains what is being said here...verse 22 "Everyone shall hate you because you belong to me. But all who endure to the end shall be saved". The verse you quoted, uncle fred, is talking about others, including our own unbelieving family members, persecuting us who are Jesus' followers for believing in Jesus...not the other way around. The word "death" is the opposite of "eternal life" meaning that the unbelievers will try to cause the believers to reject the gospel resulting in loss of eternal life...as you say, uncle fred, "when ya dead ya dead" (when it comes to unbelievers, i gotta' agree with ya on that one)

Matthew 10:34-36...this is still the same chapter speaking of the non-believers rising up to fight against and hate the followers of Christ...just as you are doing uncle fred. You are not at peace and Jesus is saying His purpose is not to bring unbelievers peace when it comes to gathering his followers. He is saying He is very aware that this is going to cause division amongst the believers and the unbelievers. And of course it's going to be a passionately excitable subject...we're talking (eternal) life or death. God created us with the ability to make choices (He didn't want puppets or robots) and He made it soooo easy to choose Him and the reward is soooo huge: eternal life

You'll notice that i posted this response only 15 minutes after your last response (when i arrived). I didn't need to consult anyone or anything other than the Bible itself.
:)
.

[BobK]

bob - are we to assume that you know the Quran very well? Do you, for instance know that it is not presented in the order in which it was written? Some Muslims interpret those parts you speak of as having been written for the time and what was happening to the Muslims at that point. Parts of it were written during a time of battle and contains instructions for dealing with what they were facing.

We shouldn't assume anything. Are you referring to the time when they believed they could conquer the Roman empire and began their march towards doing that. That time they tried mass force. That didn't work so then plan "B" has been the method improvised and in use now. Plan "B" is called qazwah (raid, ambush, sudden attack). That is how Muhammad waged his wars. He raided, massacred and looted civilians with no warning. Sound familiar?? If not look up the video on the 9/11 attack on the twin towers. Then toss in the plane that nose dived into a field in Pa. Many other attacks follow the qazwah but those two make the point.

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

These verses are very clear that they are only to fight if they are attacked - it is also clear that if the opponent stops fighting, they should also stop.

Rule 2.190 the one you cited & the rest don't support your theory. Even if we skipped what caused America to be at war with the radical islamics that doesn't explain the power struggle in Iraq between the Mahadi guerrillas & the Iraqi government. Am I supposed to believe that given an opportunity those same fighters would not do the same in the streets of America? The leadership may be differant but the message is the same.

The Quran consists of revelations from God to Muhammad over a period of twenty three years (610 C.E. – 632 C.E.). The first 13 years of the prophethood of Muhammad were at his hometown of Makkah (Mecca), where he and his fellow Muslims were severely persecuted by the pagans of Makkah. During that time, Muslims were not ordered to fight back, but bear the persecutions. Finally, God ordered the Prophet and his fellow Muslims (known as Sahabah) to emigrate to the city of Madinah, about 400 kilometers away.

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

The radical Muslims use these and other verses to justify their acts of violence, other Muslims believe they were written only for the time.

But the directives are still there and are in practice now. Quran Surah 28: The Narrative

Never help disbelievers.

That raises the question in my mind. Can Muslims in countries ruled in by non-Muslims be loyal to their country? Not helping means just what it says. That can be looked at as deception in order to gain trust which is probably why there is a push now for jihadists to look like westerners.

Written only for the time is how you finished that paragraph. For them as I see it the time is now, and will continue to be now until they either succeed or fail.


"Terrorists have often said they are striking out against their enemies and oppressors "in the name of Allah." But many Islamic scholars say such terrorists are not only violating the spirit of the Koran, but the letter of it as well.

"You do not kill innocent people, you do not cheat, you do not lie, you do not destroy any property of other human beings," says Imam Abdullah Khouj, an Islamic scholar and director of the Islamic Center, in Washington, D.C."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran_2.html

I identify them as non culpable because they aren't actually participating in how the Quran calls for eliminating all other religions.

Has it not occurred to you that they are not participating because they do not believe that the Quran calls for any such thing?

It occurs to me that they may not be as radical but that doesn't remove what they learn. The teachings are there.How or when they decide to follow is the only variance I believe is why non culpable aren't mainstream culpable.

As for Abdullah Khouj.IMO not a good referance.

A federal court in December ordered Mr. Khouj to provide documents
related to the use of post office boxes between 1984 and 2006, and he
provided one envelope from 1995 from the Saudi Embassy to Mr. Khouj at
a Washington post office box address.Further investigation uncovered that
"Khouj had money in an amount far exceeding what he could have accumulated
from his claimed salary of approximately $2,500 a month."

The case is providing new details of how the Saudi government funds
mosques and in some cases has sought to bring in radical Wahhabi
Muslims to the United States. Wahhabism is an ultraconservative form
of Islam that teaches hatred of non-Muslims and democracy, and is said
by some specialists to be a basis for al Qaeda's terrorist ideology.

[jasmine]

So now we have a case of Christians claiming uncle fred is taking Bible verses out of context - but not a word about you taking Quran verses out of context.

You quoted a single verse from Sutra 2 (the hiefer or cow) Perhaps you should do as fred has been told to do. Don't take verses out of context if you truly want to understand them. Here's a good translation of that Sutra (one of the longest in the Quran with 286 verses) http://www.submission.org/suras/sura2.html

It is sort of like the book of Leviticus in the Bible in that it spells out the laws and commandments. It was one of the first written after the move to Medina, something that should be considered when trying to understand the meaning http://www.bombaxo.com/chronsurs.html

There is little difference between the atrocities committed by God's command in the OT and those committed by God's command in the Quran. How Mohammed carried out those orders is no different than the way the Jews carried out their orders to murder, pillage, rape and burn the enemy.

Fanatics are fanatics - whether they claim to be Christian or Muslim. They are people who use a "holy book" to justify their behavior. One should not condemn an entire religion based on the behavior of the radicals.

I would love to continue the discussion, but escrow closes tomorrow on my new home and I am going to be busy moving for a few days...guess you'll just have to struggle along without my input.... have fun.

[Uncle Fred]

[b]You'll notice that i posted this response only 15 minutes after your last response (when i arrived).
I didn't need to consult anyone or anything other than the Bible itself.
[color=pink].
Congratulations Anna. A bit different from your
http://www.reachouttrust.org/indexli...s/answer01.htm
" This meaning of pre-eminence is also shown in Colossians 1:18 which, talks of Jesus being the firstborn from the dead. Was He the first one to rise from the dead? No. The rest of the verse shows what it means though - He would be pre-eminent over death because He would never die again.
The meaning of firstborn in Scripture is pre-eminence over. Thus, Colossian 1:15 does not mean that Jesus was first to be created but that He is pre-eminent over creation. "

I have spent the last half hour pondering the whole chapter from which those 'texts' were taken.
Sorry. I still can't see that they mean anything other than what they say. However much you might like them to.

Indeed, they do add weight to my conclusion that Yeshua was planning a political grab for power.
Today we'd either call him an "insurgent" or a "freedom fighter" depending on which side of the fence we sat.
I see him as something of a failed Fidel Castro - Castro succeeded.

The whole thing proves once again that one can make the "scriptures" mean anything you want them to
which is why there are so many thousands of well-meaning mainstream churches, sects, cults and assorted nutcases.
Fact is, nobody KNOWS.

Best one can say is "I think" or "I believe" or IMO.

[anna7]

Luke 14:26...In context of the whole chapter, this is about priorities...Jesus is telling the multitudes that anyone who wants to be His follower must love Him far more than he does his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, or sisters...yes, more than his own life...otherwise he cannot be Jesus' disciple.

Matthew 10:21...the very next verse explains what is being said here...verse 22 "Everyone shall hate you because you belong to me. But all who endure to the end shall be saved". The verse you quoted, uncle fred, is talking about others, including our own unbelieving family members, persecuting us who are Jesus' followers for believing in Jesus...not the other way around. The word "death" is the opposite of "eternal life" meaning that the unbelievers will try to cause the believers to reject the gospel resulting in loss of eternal life...as you say, uncle fred, "when ya dead ya dead" (when it comes to unbelievers, i gotta' agree with ya on that one)

Matthew 10:34-36...this is still the same chapter speaking of the non-believers rising up to fight against and hate the followers of Christ...just as you are doing uncle fred. You are not at peace and Jesus is saying His purpose is not to bring unbelievers peace when it comes to gathering his followers. He is saying He is very aware that this is going to cause division amongst the believers and the unbelievers. And of course it's going to be a passionately excitable subject...we're talking (eternal) life or death. God created us with the ability to make choices (He didn't want puppets or robots) and He made it soooo easy to choose Him and the reward is soooo huge: eternal life

You'll notice that i posted this response only 15 minutes after your last response (when i arrived). I didn't need to consult anyone or anything other than the Bible itself.
:)
.
I have spent the last half hour pondering the whole chapter from which those 'texts' were taken.
Sorry. I still can't see that they mean anything other than what they say. However much you might like them to.
...your response, uncle fred, is the weakest response possible. It's interesting that you yourself said, "I can't see". It only tells me that you are "blinded" to the truth (either that or you failed Reading Comprehension in school). When you read the Bible, you see hatred, confusion, and inconsistencies. When i read the Bible, i see love, clarity, perfect truth with no errors. You won't see the truth it holds until you open your heart. It may be too hardened at this point...only you and God know that. Sorry, i'm just telling it like it is. Here's my hope: you once said you are searching...that's a good sign...it means the Holy Spirit is convicting you. You are angry, agitated, and rebellious...more signs that tell me you are going to be His one day. No problem, uncle fred....i did the same thing in college and then i finally was humbled. God is good.

[Uncle Fred]

.....You are angry, agitated, and rebellious...
Not in the SLIGHTEST, Anna.
Occasionally just a tiny bit frustrated when seemingly intelligent people are so arrogant that they WILL not acknowledge that they are fallible humans with no greater claim to "truth" than anybody else on the planet.

[OneSG]

2.190. Fight against those who fight against you in the way of Allah, but do not transgress, for Allah does not love transgressors.

2.191. Kill them whenever you confront them and drive them out from where they drove you out. (For though killing is sinful) wrongful persecution is even worse than killing.

2.192. Then if they desist, know well that Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Compassionate.

2.193. Keep on fighting against them until mischief ends and the way prescribed by Allah prevails. But if they desist, then know that hostility is only against the wrong-doers.

These verses are very clear that they are only to fight if they are attacked - it is also clear that if the opponent stops fighting, they should also stop.

That makes it clear now. They only attacked the Twin Towers and killed the people on the London transport because those they killed were knocking seven bells out of them. Sorta self defense. Now I can rest assured that I am safe thank goodness.

[OneSG]

..........

[nashan]

Dear Uncle Freddie:

I did have a great night's sleep and feel refreshed this morning.

Several posts have been made during the time that I have slept. One in particular, Anna's. She has done well in explaining the verses to you. I am NOT trying to get out of explaining them myself, it will take a while to do so. I will give this explanation for now, without looking up more in the Bible, if you will just take what I say to your heart from my heart. As you know, I usually speak what I feel is right. Some of you seem not to care what is right and I guess that is your business. The Bible is the WORD of God. It is of the truth. If it is NOT in the Bible then it is NOT of the TRUTH. Those of you who do not want to believe the Bible will someday be sorry. Being that the Bible, is the TRUTH there is always going to be someone who disagrees or reads things into it that would be confusing. I am not educated enough to explain all details of the Bible, so for now I am allowing the Holy Spirit to guide my way. The Bible was written for one soul purpose and that is for learning. Sure, we may wonder why God allowed certain things to happen or even why He chose to kill thousands of people who disobeyed His commands. And it is NOT for me to question why He allowed them. My late hubby asked me this question many times in which I could not give him the answer: "God being a loving God why did He allow over 6 million Jews (his chosen people) to be gassed to death during WW2?"

So Freddie, if one has desire to believe and seek the truth then the truth will be revealed. I honestly feel that you are seeking to find the truth. I suggest you first start by asking God to help you. If you are sincere He will do just that. ("Seek and ye shall find.......")

And you can always "google" for answers as you "google" for questions. Just be careful in doing so that you find the correct answers for those questions.

[BobK]

There is little difference between the atrocities committed by God's command in the OT and those committed by God's command in the Quran. How Mohammed carried out those orders is no different than the way the Jews carried out their orders to murder, pillage, rape and burn the enemy.

Fanatics are fanatics - whether they claim to be Christian or Muslim. They are people who use a "holy book" to justify their behavior. One should not condemn an entire religion based on the behavior of the radicals.

I would love to continue the discussion, but escrow closes tomorrow on my new home and I am going to be busy moving for a few days...guess you'll just have to struggle along without my input.... have fun.

Somewhere in the beginning of this I thought I mentioned that present day acts were the basis for exchanging thoughts. Using verses from the Quran to relate to what is happening seemed logical. You could use verses from the bible to show how christians are following the bible to attack Muslims.

You may not have noticed I referred to radicals each time. But the teachings the radical element use are the same teachings for all Islamics. I'm glad you can isolate the idea that only a percentage within will at any given time do acts of violence. I don't know who those are, where they are, do you?

Meanwhile I hope all goes well in your move and that your new home is what you expect it to be.

[sunnyside]

Not in the SLIGHTEST, Anna.
Occasionally just a tiny bit frustrated when seemingly intelligent people are so arrogant that they WILL not acknowledge that they are fallible humans with no greater claim to "truth" than anybody else on the planet.

Humility at last.
This does describe you also
Thank you for your forthrightness.

[nashan]

Bob mentioned he hoped Jasmine's move went well.

Since she has me on ignore could someone ask her if she is moving back to Iowa? That would be a long move from west coast to the middle of the states. I wish her well also.

[sunnyside]

...your response, uncle fred, is the weakest response possible. It's interesting that you yourself said, "I can't see". It only tells me that you are "blinded" to the truth (either that or you failed Reading Comprehension in school). When you read the Bible, you see hatred, confusion, and inconsistencies. When i read the Bible, i see love, clarity, perfect truth with no errors. You won't see the truth it holds until you open your heart. It may be too hardened at this point...only you and God know that. Sorry, i'm just telling it like it is. Here's my hope: you once said you are searching...that's a good sign...it means the Holy Spirit is convicting you. You are angry, agitated, and rebellious...more signs that tell me you are going to be His one day. No problem, uncle fred....i did the same thing in college and then i finally was humbled. God is good.

It's important to note that the Bible is better understood, and continues to reveal itself to those who are adopted into the family of God by accepting Jesus as the crucified Son of God, who laid down his life for our salvation, and asking Jesus into their hearts as their personal Lord and savior.

I remember trying to read the Bible and failing to make sense of it, time and time again, for years. I'd read a bit and put it down in frustration.

Years later, it became easier and made more sense, after I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Not everything is revealed at one time. There are simple things in the beginning. More is revealed as we grow in wisdom, and as we study and grow as a Christian.

[sunnyside]

" Still in his head, not yet in his heart."

Yep ! Still rational. Not living in fantasyland.

The heart is not fantasy land. You do have a heart don't you?
Actually, the heart referred to, is your spirit, even though you don't think you have one.

Still in your head, not yet in your heart -- for now.

[Joyous]

How are people ever going to get it right if we don't "Spread the good news" ? When everyone knows that "Agape" love is the answer, this world will be a happy place.

[nashan]

How are people ever going to get it right if we don't "Spread the good news" ? When everyone knows that "Agape" love is the answer, this world will be a happy place.


Amen Joyous Amen!

[Uncle Fred]

http://www.reachouttrust.org/indexlinks/answers/answer01.htm
And I had begun to believe you searched the scriptures for yourself.
Was that half an hour searching Google? Any ideas of your own to post?

Ahh but you see mate, you have gone off half-cocked (?) yet again.

I refer you to
Post 150 in the 'Sunny to Nash' thread
wherein Anna cut-and-paste the whole paragraph from that site and presented it to us as the product of her own brilliant mind.
Naturally, the noble Uncle was able to instantly recognize the improved literacy and found the real source in a flash.

You will note that a post or two later in that thread, I exposed her plagiarism to the world.
The matter was then raised again here when comment was made about 'original thought'.

Hope that is not too complicated.

[anna7]

...my oversight for this one portion, sorry...you sure had to go way back to find this and then keep bringing it up...not much happening in your life these days, fred?

...and, by the way, i didn't feel right about crediting any source because much of my entire post was edited, shortened, reworded, the context reworked, and revamped by anna7

[Uncle Fred]

So the truth hurts, Anna ?
Sorry.

Research is fine.
But if I, or most REASONABLE people post whole paragraphs, actually written by others, we ALWAYS acknowledge having done so.
Usually by posting the URL.
But, AT THE VERY LEAST, by saying something like "I read elsewhere that ........"

[anna7]

...i always acknowledge sources and i apologize that it was left off this portion...my oversight.

...as i have stated over and over to you fred...i didn't feel right about crediting any source because much of the entire original post was edited, shortened, reworded, the context reworked, and revamped by anna7

[sunnyside]

...i always acknowledge sources and i apologize that it was left off this portion...my oversight.

You didn't know U were being watched by the Discussions Police, did you?
U better straighten up and fly right or they'll put you in the Old-Old Folks' Home.
:)

[anna7]

...LOL...poor agitated soul he must be.

[sunnyside]

...LOL...poor agitated soul he must be.

Is there such a personality disorder as Agitated Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?

AOCD sounds like a new recording device. I wonder if we can get it without a stuck needle?

[anna7]

Is there such a personality disorder as Agitated Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?

AOCD sounds like a new recording device. I wonder if we can get it without a stuck needle?
The answer to this question is YES...it's called OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER...more commonly referred to as ODD. Here are the symptoms (and no, uncle fred, this isn't my own idea...this is copied and pasted from PsychCentral.com....LOL):

SYMPTOMS OF OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER:
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to cooperate
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
is often angry and resentful
is often spiteful or vindictive

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social or occupational functioning.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder is often accompanied with other disorders such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder

[Uncle Fred]

,,,,,much of the entire original post was edited, shortened, reworded, the context reworked, and revamped by anna7
And what is the psychobabble definition for one who purports holier-than-thou christianity
BUT CANNOT EVEN TELL THE TRUTH ?

[OneSG]

..........

[Uncle Fred]

Absolutely. But I can understand why YOU'D be a bit tender about it ..........

[anna7]

Is there such a personality disorder as Agitated Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?
AOCD sounds like a new recording device. I wonder if we can get it without a stuck needle?
The answer to this question is YES...it's called OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER...more commonly referred to as ODD. And Uncle Fred is a perfect example.

Here are the symptoms (and no, uncle fred, this isn't my own idea...this is copied and pasted from PsychCentral.com....LOL):

SYMPTOMS OF OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER:
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to cooperate
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
is often angry and resentful
is often spiteful or vindictive

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social or occupational functioning.

Oppositional Defiant Disorder is often accompanied with other disorders such as Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder

[sunnyside]

ODD - such an appropriate spelling. ;)

[sunnyside]

Snow white?

Snow White's Stepmother? NO, I have it. The Wizard of OZ.

Dontchy'all know it's a colossal waste of time to discuss Bible with an Ath and an Ag.

The best place for them is on ignore, or read but don't respond. Leave F & J to talk to each other. Ostracize !

[Uncle Fred]

Dontchy'all know it's a colossal waste of time to discuss Bible with an Ath and an Ag.

ABSOLUTELY RIGHT - if one is not INTERESTED in seeking truth but only in bolstering up preconceptions and conditioning.
AND if one is so arrogant that they really believe that only THEIR own opinions could POSSIBLY have value.

Even IF said 'Aths' and 'Ags' know HEAPS more than the average "christian".
Even IF they have not always been 'Aths' or 'Ags' but have researched long and hard before reaching that position.
Even IF they are more objective - uninfluenced by cults, sects, denominations or specially-spun translations.

And clearly, people like Lincoln, Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Freud, Richard Dawkins, Bill Gates and Richard Branson are (or were) DUMB !



"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.
I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere....
Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust.
A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
-- Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 9 November 1930 .. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/einstein.htm
EINSTEIN - oh yes, another intellectual pigmy.
Total waste of time considering the views of someone like him.
"We are MUCH smarter"

RIGHT ....................

[sunnyside]

To ignore the above member, as this website recommends for members who continually harass, please see 'Over the Back Fence'
for instructions on How to Put a Member on Ignore.

Members should be able to post what they want without being bullied and harassed by the above member.

[Joyous]

While all are not considered "Intelectuals", we are all allowed an opinion. My opinion is not obligated to fall lock step into line with that of any other human, regardless of the IQ.

From Fred's post,
Even IF said 'Aths' and 'Ags' know HEAPS more than the average "christian".
Even IF they have not always been 'Aths' or 'Ags' but have researched long and hard before reaching that position.
Even IF they are more objective - uninfluenced by cults, sects, denominations or specially-spun translations.

Even if one was an agnostic and after research and deep thinking, one has become a Christian, this of course does not make one right. You believe you can find truth by reading the "Great" minds. I believe I can find truth within the Bible and from listening for the Holy Spirit. Who is to say I am wrong?

[sunnyside]

[/QUOTE] You believe you can find truth by reading the "Great" minds. I believe I can find truth within the Bible and from listening for the Holy Spirit. Who is to say I am wrong?[/QUOTE]

I agree with you.

Intellect and intellectual thinking generally get spiritual things wrong.
Spiritual truths, are not easily accessible by intellect.

Spiritual truths are found through and by one's spirit. One has to be spiritually born to find spiritual truths in the Bible, and more as one grows spiritually.

I know, next comes the arguments about all the other "religions' who say they found the truth.
It doesn't matter. Their truth is truth for them. I don't agree with their truth. I have to live with the truth I've found. That's always the way it is.

[OneSG]

..........

[anna7]

...thank you onesg! great idea!..maybe a memory game with scripture should be an ongoing topic...although i would fail miserably i'm disappointed to say.

...i know there are 9 fruits of the spirit. Without looking....peace, love, joy, patience, kindness, self-control...um...not wisdom...umm...apples, oranges, pears...i bet you know...you're being humble.

[Joyous]

I am thankful for google.

Galatians 5:
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

[sunnyside]

Anna - you're a victim of a "drive-by fruiting!

[anna7]

...hahaha...you're funny sunny

[sunnyside]

...hahaha...you're funny sunny

:) just for you!