By mark on Friday, May 25, 2001 - 12:49 am:

Yes, I agree with all that and thanks for your answer. The problem is, just 'being good' is not what the Bible or Jesus teaches as being the way to salvation. It might make everyone a bit happier but still people are left with a hole in their lives which the Bible teaches, only God can fill.


Also what was your reply to my comment further up? Lord or Liar?

It's been answered. You should read ALL the messages. I'm done here. Fini.

God in his infinite wisdom set up laws of the universe,and it is for us to live them or endure the consequences. Read it with a heart of a Child. "Remmenber when you were small and said your prayers"."him",Seek the Father first and all you need will be yours. How many adults have you seen get baptised ? Their pride will keep them from God. How many adults have you seen get baptised ? To wash their lives of the past and start a new life with
Good Orderly Dirrection.
We only can make that dissision.
Like a Child comes to you and say's I didn't eat the cookie's and he has crumbs all over his face, God will see your past. He is your Father and wants only to protect you as you have protected your Children. Remember when your Child was a toddler,and would not listen and go into danger.
Bad things happen to show us our mortality,just maybe in time we find our knee's. divinity. When something bad happen's,hopfully people will seek GOD.
I beleive in the Father,Son,the Holly Spirit,and baptism when we understand his plan. To walk the walk. Not just talk it.God put us here to enjoy our lives,and for him to enjoy us. There is nothing you have done he won't forgive. Boy ! can we make a mess of our life's. And we didn't mean too,we just wanted to be happy,or what we thought happiness was. And after viliager's hearing the news of the Gospel they went to there homes and reveiwed their lives, confessed to one anouther and went to the river to baptised. Look at the world we are in, is it any wonder we get lost. I don't blame people for their past mistakes, but a definition of insainity is to repeat them and exspect differant results.
All things work for the good for them that love and obey God. So I live by his princible's,He is only laying out a plan to protect his Children from themselfs. Self will But they MUST heed His will. Self will,will run riot.
To sume it up
Grace We don't deserve what he has givin us
Mercy He doesn't give us what we deserve

I would rather believe in jesus and be wrong than not believe in jesus and be wrong. ETernity is a long time to spend in the wrong place.
take care
elk

elk
you might be interested in Pascal's Wager.

Reading RoJo's comments about being raised Roman Catholic brought a smile to my face. No meat on Friday (why the heck was that a rule?), original sin, St. Christopher (who "they" decided was not a Saint anymore), not so celibate priests (our parish priest was a drunk, could be found at the local bar during happy hour every night of the week). Forced to attend Catholic School through the 8th Grade, taught by Benedictine Nuns who were, without a doubt, the meanest women I ever met in my life. Like Ro, the minute I got out of Catholic School, I never went thru another church door again. One of the world's greatest problems is the population explosion, but tell that to the Catholics. Which is not to say I dont believe in God...I just dont believe in ORGANIZED RELIGION!!

heck, Blackstone!!
im just interested in getting to heaven.
take care
elk

Boy, Ptycke? That is a long ways back...
Well? In my case.. frustrated old nuns and brothers telling me how to have sex? WHAT?
My wife to be had never missed church, ok, could live with that, I guess..
Went to get permission to be married in another area?.. Like that mattered?
She went over the top. She told this old frustrated fart to stick to what was important, and that if she heard another word about that, SEX, that she was out of there... Why we had to talk to (?} him didn't matter to me.. I was a yes man.. Whatever he wanted to hear.. We got married under the blessing of the church, and she never set foot in a church again, except for death and marrige, same for our kids.. OK with me.. RJ

When it all comes to push and shove... The word entopy grabs me real hard, but I take it in and spit it out. I like being a bad ass, always have, but there are no new ideas here.. change me? change you? ..RJ

personally i don't want anyone changing me and i certainly do not want to change anyone.
take care
elk

having said that, could you give me the definition of entopy? rojo!

I agree with you elk, the only person we can change is ourself anyway. I belives most people do the best they can in their given circumstances.

elk? are you serious? look it up.. RJ

im serious RoJo
take care
elk

Rojo, I did look it up. According to encarta world dictionary there is no such word, there is however entropy perhaps that's the one you want. Phillyfoal.

In San Francisco. Sorry, just call me Mr. type O. And I was sarcastic to boot? Go figure. Sometimes I need a good kick in the but! entropy not entopy.. RJ

RojO
hECK! we're all allowed "ONE" mistake!!!
take care
elk

I believe that for most people in the world, a person's religion is mostly a matter of where they are born. If a person is born in Tibet, they will have one belief. If a person is born in Saudi Arabia, they will have another belief. Americans do tend to change their religion more because we tend to question everything. We do not take things on belief and tradition alone. We are exposed to so many different view points. I have seen many very religious and caring, good people of all religions and I cannot believe that any of them will be excluded because of their faith. I have studied many religions and I wish I had not. I frankly envy those people who have not been exposed to so many different beliefs. I wish I could have the faith to believe that my belief was the "true" answer. If only I knew what my belief was exactly. The Bible has been changed and edited so many times over the years. I know it is supposed to be the inspired word of God but the St. James version is different from the Catholic version. Differences in translation can make a big difference in meanings.A baby born into a Jewish family will probably be Jewish. A baby born into a Muslim family will probably be Muslim. Does that make them any less believing in God? I believe God knows what is in our heart. It is all so confusing and so sad because for generations so many people have died in the cause of religion.(supposedly) Of course, the goal of man was really power and control as always. I believe in God--but I believe he is a God for all the people not a select few who happen to be born into the right country or family.

Each of you go to the closest mirror. Take a look at yourself.
The image you will see is the best evidence that God exists.

Who or what else could have created such?

Maybe evolution.. RJ

like my son the physician says!!!
when one looks at the intricate details of a man's body, then i know there is a father, son, and holy ghost.
take care
elk
most of my family are christian physicians.

SURE I'M BRAGGING!!!

Couldn't be bothered to look up Blaise Pascal and his wager then elk? Might be missing something. Hate to make you think if you're not up for it.
Apologies. Thing is that whatever you think of , chances are it's been thought of before. By clever people.

Blackstone.. Hey nasty one. Welcome back! Although not directed at me, I sure have missed your empty-headed, transparent, low self esteemed based attempts to be clever and insulting, all at the same time. Now that's obviously a talent that you were born with. Now that you are back, I KNOW, all is right in my world.. RJ

elkouri, keep braggin. we need more christian physicians in the world! If I am putting a loved one in a doctor,s hand, then I want him or her to know that God is guiding their hand! And I want to know that , that dr. has prayed for that guidance. I am sure you are very proud of your children and so you should be. You have my utmost respect as a parent ....congratulations! Blackstone, if ever you are in need of serious surgery, please do me a favor and make sure you do not go to a christian doctor. If you do not believe...stand by that.....and take your chances....pick an atheist doctor and do us all a favor. keep your mouth closed and we might think you are "stupid" because when you open your mouth we now know you "are stupid"

Not one to hide your light under a bushel are you RJ? If you had a light. Or if you knew what a bushel was. As you say, not directed at you, but you miss no opportunity to put yourself in the firing line. Is this some compulsion? The cognomen rojo seems ever present on this site. Any chance of giving it a rest? Or do you have a view on absolutely everything whether you know anything about it or no? The OverFifties Rojo site. A little too much rojo and not enough overfifties.

Yes on all points bl, except one.. No rest. You rest old guy.. RJ

thanks rojo!
thanks cat!

and now for you "STONE"
WANNA KISS MY A............nkles
Oh by the way i did check blaise pascal.
dont underestimate me black.
i jusssstttt might be toooo much for you.

take care
elk

Gee all the differing opinions on the subject
one thing is I am sure of Thank God Im an athiest

Good for you Anon.. Thank whoever for that. I am am an agnostic.. I think I will learn much more being that, but you have it all figured out. So cool!! Tell me more! Need to know! PLEASE.. RJ

RoJo, if you are an agnostic, then you are honest about it; keep searching. If we search long enough, and with the honesty you are displaying, we have hope. I searched; I found Jesus. So now that I found Him, I realize He knew me all the while. I wish for you the same joy that I found in belief in Him.

I can understand agnostism; we all have doubts at times, even sometimes of our own existence. Well, I never quite reached that point, but many do. To admit not believing, not being sure of who you should believe in, you may have made the first step to finding out what to believe in.

I pray your search will be rewarded with finding the truth all men should seek.

Dear Elk having a family of christian doctors is something well worth bragging about. You have a right to that, congratulations.Phillyfoal

Hey Rojo..You must have broad shoulders to take all this heat..As an Agnostic you believe there is a God, you just don't worship him..her..
So when something good happens or see something amazing..Do you ever say "Oh my God" or "For Gods sake" or who do you thanks for a beautiful day? Please tell.

I don't know? I love life, and I love people... ALL people. I guess I have a hard time with.. ME right , you wrong. Willing to listen, but I will respond..... Again,, not sure.. RJ

You Know Blackstone,It hasen't been that long ago that you made a comment about intelligent people having difference of opinion without judging, criticizing or belittleing someone for a different opinion. You seem to criticize people for not reading some article that you may or maynot have read. Does that give you some sort of superior feeling? Seems like a lot of judgement in those comments you make. Try this, try using those intelligence for commenting on the subject and a little less on trying to impress us.

The Kalam (Time) Argument:
Muslim philosophers argued: If the universe had a beginning at all, the beginning cannot rest on nothingness but God. If the universe had, instead, an infinite past and is without beginning and uncreated, then it is impossible to have arrived at the present moment, in the same way as it is impossible to jump out of a bottomless pit.
The key here is the concept of infinity. Surely, if we have to go back infinitely without arriving at a beginning, there could be a great problem with having arrived at the present moment. Without a definite starting point in time, this is simply impossible.

Bones, on April 24th you mentioned a cousin who gave his life for his friends, throwing himself on a grenade. What an act of faith and courage. I do sympathize with you and the rest of his family. But he chose to give his life for others. And just between you and me, I hope that I would have similar courage and love if faced with such a choice.

Jesus said there is no greater love than to give one's life for a friend, then went to the cross for us all; for each of us. Your cousin's life may not have brought salvation to the world as did that of our Lord, but he sure gave a group of friends the opportunity to find faith themselves. Just try to be comforted with the thought that this man was a wonderful example of love, and remember that all love comes from God.

I am sure he now sits among the saints. Hopefully, we will all meet him there. My heart goes out to you.

Thank you Snowden, he was indeed a wonderful guy and a dear friend to me as well.

Dear pholley and elkouri Pascal's Wager isn't an article, unless you consider it an article of faith. That's a kind of joke. Pascal made the point that the advantages to be gained by believing in God far outweighed the disadvantages, so he said in a kind of French 17thC witticism that he was happy to wager that there was a God. This was such a happy parallel to the remark of elkouri that it was worthwhile pointing it out. Which I did. Now you might have thought that would elicit a response, after all we all like to learn things, don't we? Or maybe not. And yes elkouri you probably are too much. Lots of letters anyway. Does that mean something? Or is that somethingggggggg? Crazy spelling,crazy guy.

heck, blackstone,

dont start getting crazy on me, and just when i was kinda beginning to sorta like you!!!

naive okla girl
take care
elk

Like me! Oh don't do that my dear. I'll only disappoint you. I just came across sarcasm and think it's a whizz. Love to puncture pomposity. With a hayfork! Or a Magnum. Breaking butterflies on wheels is a kind of favourite sport. Terrible childhood, eh? But just love insouciance and Okies are just misplaced Scots and English anyway so you should have plenty firepower yourself.
Take your best shot kid! Go on, pile in.
Naive indeed, Hah! Like an alligator.
Your naif correspondent, Rocky.

No one will ever puncture my self importance and carefree attitude.

take your best shot black stone
JUST DO IT

naif correspondent Hah, LIKE A SNAKE
take care
elk

you know why God has many rooms in his mansion? So we can all think we r the only ones in heaven. lol God has a sense of humour. philbrin

True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate,and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance.
-- Akhenaton

take care
elk

elk, how true.Philbrin

Ya Elkouri, tayyib! (Good!)

As to whether we can prove there is God, just look around us and we can see so many miracles. We have a tendency to think spring just "that time of year," and the birth of a baby something that happens every minute somewhere in the world, and so on. But this world has been carefully planned and if we look closely at the makeup of it, even careless journalists occasionally get it right and refer to the "design" of things here. This is evidence, not proof; but think about it.

It takes a brain, the ability to plan and carry out the plan, for something as complex as this planet and the heavens around us to come into existence. The big bang? Why not? But it was a planned "bang." And the results were carried out step by step for millenia before man took his first step and started the long road of first building and now seemingly destroying it all.

We can destroy, kill, re-create, procreate, whatever. But the entirety of it, the complexity of it all; who can deny that it was no accident? Even all the medicines ultimately can be found in plants. Everything we need to support life is here. Just waiting for our minds to develop to the point of reconizing it.

Oh, yes; I do believe in God. And I thank Him for His great gift of creation and of salvation for mankind. We need both to exist at all.

hey, my naif correspondent , ROCKY

Maybe i judged you too harshly!!!
You did say you just love insouciance, EH??????

SSSsssssssssssTTTsssssst!

naif okla girl
take care
elk

Maybe the best way to prove the existence of God is by trying to prove He doesn't.

Anybody want to try???????

Not really on. Might as well ask for proof that there aren’t any fairies. What could you say except that you’ve never seen any? Disproof of a proposition that there is a something (a god, unicorns, truthful politicians) isn’t possible. This is just to do with formal logic. It isn’t connected with whether there is or isn’t the thing in question.
It would be possible to prove to everybody’s satisfaction that there are unicorns (not sure about truthful politicians). If there are unicorns just bring one along and let’s see it.
Can’t do that with God however. It’s a question of belief and not one of fact. Which is why arguing about whether there is a god or not is so frustrating. A deity is by definition outside the normal rules of evidence. So what you are left with is personal experience. Now for some folks that’s enough. They had a revelation and now they believe. But why should your revelation convince me? You could simply be wrong, or deluded, or were on drugs or drunk or have mental problems.Some folk say they were abducted by aliens. Bring along your alien and lets look at it.

Snowden, that is the most pathetic line of drivle i have ever read. You may not ever experience the horrors i have,but if you ever do you will know right then and there that God in any form or likeness does not exist. The people i run into that spitter on like you about god are reformed drug addicts or refromed alchaloics the the addiction of god takes place of the drug, making the dopeimine receptiors in the brain happy. Wait till the day comes when you ask your god for help in your most DIRE of time. see what happens then! Maybe you see love and light around you it's only because you turn your blind eye to the dark and hate that is there also. Birth is a miricle you say?? for some of us its a curse. remember NOT all of us would have chosen to be born.You are one of the people who cannot and will not think for yourself and would rather be lead around like a sheep and who i would rather not see contribute to the gene pool.

Bandit, I've tried in a little (a lot) nicer way to say what you're trying to say, but those who believe will always believe no matter the logic that is presented. Your point about asking for divine help in dire need really hit for me. A stroke victim's plight, a person very, very dear to me, caused me to even pray if there was an off chance that it worked, that God was listening. I even joined in a hands-on prayer, and there was a prayer chain across the country. Oh, how I wanted to believe, and if God had done ANYTHING to make it better, I would have started reading the Bible and going to church every day. But no, science, logic, reality were the divine, and God did nothing to help. Now, others will say, well, it's because you really didn't believe enough or you didn't pray right, or some other nonsensical excuse. The fact that she now lives in a silent disabling world can not be what God would have done if there were a God.

Bandet, I don,t think you have to have an "experience" to know there is definitely a God! I would even say to you that if you began reading the bible and began praying for god to become real to you, that would happen. you are correct when you say drug addicts, alcoholics etc. are the ones believeing in god. off course they are. because without god in their life they may have never gotten away from their addictions! but there are also the rest of us that know god exists that have not had those addictions. god does not always choose to give us everything we ask for. to be able to trust god,s choice is to be a believeing christian and to know that god,s plan for us will be the right one. he created us, knows us, and is there for us. you seem to have a block up already and until it comes down will not know god. pity, because he is not there for one, but for all. I have had a lot of hardships in my life but the one thing I have never questioned is god. he never walks away from us. we are the ones walking away from him. but very luckily he still is always there. you sound very unhappy. I for one am glad I was born! not trying to pick at you, trying to help you.....nor am I trying to convince you.....just trying to help you

lol bones, you posted just ahead of me!!!Bones, very sad about your friend. do you know that sometimes these things are very devastating to us and we want so badly for that person to be healed and that doesn,t happen. but god is really always there. you know my daughter passed away a month before she was 15. I always wanted a daughter and god gave me one. a beautiful, happy, outgoing girl! everyone who knew her fell in love with her. thru many surgeries, many hardships, she even at 14 years of age never questioned god. and on the day she died, at home, in her favorite chair, never feared dieing. and even I , who loved her more than life, never questioned "Why????" god has a plan for us all. who am I to doubt? that little girl touched so many lives, mine included, and taught me things I would never known. that was god,s blessing to all. oh don,t kid yourself. my choice was always to have marla here in this world. but you know this world is not always the best. why do people suffer? why do people have many trials to go thru? don,t know bones. but I feel you are a friend to me and I to you. please don,t feel abandoned. your friend is being cared for. even when things look the worst.

It's my sister, my soulmate, and yes, you're my friend and on this subject, we respectfully disagree. Respectfully. Bones

what makes this so interesting bones is just this. different opinions, different thoughts, and yes different people but still friends. wishing you the very best and am so sorry about your sister. see you in chat!

Is anyone on now?

Hellooooooooooo

Spartan if you want to chat go to the ballroom nearly always someone there regards philbrin

Bones, I feel for you and with you. I have felt your despair with loved ones of my own, and the way they suffer. I have ranted and raved at God and I don't understand why. I do believe in God and just pray that I and those dear to me have the strength and courage to endure. My thoughts and prayers will be with you and yours for what that's worth to you. Take care Phillyfoal.

Thank you both Phillyfoal and Cat, and I'm sorry for your losses as well. Never, ever easy.

Cat, you're right about an "experience" not being needed to believe in God. Bandet is judging my reasons for belief, and they are many. But to say one has to have had an addiction or whatever in order to accept God is rather sad and pathetic. God simply is; as a Christian I don't question His reasons for letting bad things happen to good people. He made us in His image; we decided to mess up everything, and this is the result. A "fallen world," in which bad things happen to good people and good things as well; and good things happen to both kinds of people too. It's life on this planet, and mostly we can blame ourselves for it.

Of course there are cases where good people; wonderful people suffer, and it's hard for any of us to accept. But it is all because of sin, and not necessarily the sin of the one doing the suffering. Unfair? Well who said the world is fair? Who owes us anything? We are blessed when we know God; many suffer and still find the ability to praise and bless God.

Since I am personally a stranger to most, if not all of you; how do you know what I may have suffered? Bandet, what do you know of me? I'd be interested to know what you think you know.

God is? In the same way that things in the world are? In the way that cheese and tv sets are? Hardly. He is for you but not for me. That's not existence like material things exist. We wouldn't argue about the existence of a concrete drainpipe, it either is or it isn't and how we feel about it doesn't matter.
Emotional certainty that a particular belief is true does not constitute proof, though it may be shared by a large number of people. (quote)

Oh, I like the quote, Black.

i know i shouldn't but i will.

Bandet!
thats not nice putting down another's beliefs.
take care
elk

Bones, Cat, I am so sorry for the loss of those so dear to you. Cat, I'm glad that you will again see that daughter in Heaven. I know it's the one true comfort you have; remembering the joy of her, and knowing her death was in this life only, and that you both have all eternity ahead.

Blackstone, there are ways of knowing God is. Not like cheese, not like TV; but He is not a shy God. He will search you out if you only ask Him to reveal Himself to you. It may not be at that precise moment, but you, and Bones as well; He is the God of us all. And you will know Him; I pray that it will be throughout all eternity by both of you finding Him while you are still here on earth. Both of you, and so many others.

It's not easy to lose someone close to us, but we all do and will until we die ourselves. It's an inevitable fact of life; we don't ask proof of that, since we do see it all the time. But to ask God to reveal Himself to you; to truly seek Him, that is the first step. I cannot prove He exists, nor that He does not exist. But I assure you, I do know Him and I do know He is.

Elkouri, atheists and agnostics have been put down, villified and persecuted by "believers " for ages, so I hope you extend that idea of mutual respect to include them

but of course Janet.
reread my post.
take care
elk