By elkouri on Wednesday, June 20, 2001 - 06:09 am:

Bones, Cat
i too am sorry about your loss.
all losses are traumatic, but the loss of ones child would be one of the hardest to take , i believe.

having said that, i lost my handsome dad and just recently lost my handsome physician brother.
my mentors, my loves.

it hurts
GOD BLESS
take care
elk

Ah, Elk; you didn't tell us. I am sorry for your losses. I knew about your father, of course; not your brother. I am so sorry. I have been so blessed to have all my siblings and all my children survivors so far. I lost my oldest and dearest friend not long ago; but she had really stopped wanting to live when she lost her husband some seven years earlier.

Atheists and agnostics are always welcome, Janet; and respected. Frankly, I think the bravest people in the world are those who can face life without faith in God. I couldn't do it.

So, while I differ from you in that area of faith, I respect your right to be what and who you are. And so does my God. His love is as much yours as mine; that is what I believe, anyway. And if it were not so, why would we feel called upon to pray for you? It's what we believe, and we pray for one another and for those who cannot see a reason to believe in God.

Thank you , snowden..but please don't waste your time in praying for this happy atheist.People must be able to form whatever ideas about life as they wish , my only concern is the terrible harm that religions do to the vulnerable of this world.
If you find comfort in your beliefs I am happy for you.

religions are man made, not of God.

God's Way is one way. Even gave us a guild book, "Believers Instructions Before Leaving Earth".
BIBLE
Read it quite believable for those looking for the truth in all things.

Hi cat,i do know what you are going thru.i lost my beautiful 10yr.old grandson to a horrible grain bin accident7 yrs.ago but it still seems like yesterday, i was expecially close to him ,he lived with me, the first 4 yrs of his life , and his mom"my daughter"has really had a terrible time dealing with it , so i had to put my grief aside so i could be a comfort for her,it is really hard to get her to go to the cemetary,i dont insist i think she will when the time is right for her,of course i go,quite a lot, play some of his favorite music for him, about two weeks before he died he was spending the nite with me ,he said nanny no matter how many grand kids you get will i always be your precious,of course i said yes you will be. i had always called my precious from the day he was born,so Cat my heart goes out to you for i have been ther also, BLess you

Most of my opinions on this subject have been written earlier in this discussion, last month and before, but I have a rhetorical question: If God's kingdom is for ALL of us, even the non-believers and those who have not sought Him, then why, pray tell (that's a saying, not literal), do we who doubt have to worry about it at all? Isn't the teaching about living a good life and being good to others? If we who live a good and caring life don't believe as the strong believers do, then where does our soul go? I ask that because the believers must have an answer for that one. I believe that the body dies, and if there is a soul, it's what memories you've left behind, what works you've left behind, what results there have been by your being alive at all, if you'll be remembered positively or negatively.

If we do not let our eyes and our ears hear, we can never learn that which is outside us, that which we now think personally doesn't matter to us. If we realize there are things which we cannot understand, things that some people can see that others cannot, things old and new which must be contemplated by our mind's before we know. We can only think we know the existence or non-existence of God.

It is precisely snowden because you feel you can speak about "ways of knowing God" that your project,your argument, is so flawed. Look, we all know well what the word "know" means. Are any of the ways of knowing God that you refer to like the plain use of the word? Would I know him when I meet him at the bus stop, can I play a game of golf with him or can I expect him to lend me his lawnmower? Well,he doesn't use buses, play games or mow his own lawn so you have to be talking about a use of the word "know" that I am not familiar with. And if you believe that God exists you are using "exist" in a context where it makes no sense. Mr Smith my neighbour can exist and I can know him and so can you. Anybody can. You will always have to qualify claims about God existing and you knowing him. This is what you feel not what you know. Mr Smith's existence doesn't depend on whether you believe in him or not. And I don't have a lawn, so that's OK. Please don't assume as I said before that just because you believe something really strongly that it's true for everyone else. It isn't.

I'm skipping ahead of where I was reading, to say that it is good to see that C.S. Lewis is still being read! His premise was that Jesus had to be one of three things; a crazy man, a liar, or the Lord He said He is. So many of his Apostles died horrible deaths; Peter even being crucified upside down because he felt unworthy to die as had his Lord. Would these men, who lived and followed Jesus for three years, have died so willingly, after taking their families to teach the Gospel year after persecuted year for a crazy man? For a liar? Not likely; not all of them! And Paul, that former persecutor of Christians, to be changed in a flash (apparently quite a literal flash!) on the road to Damascus, then turn to the Lord and preach to us Gentiles?

The point Lewis, an atheist and college professor, no dope by any means; the point he was making was that some one of these men, most likely all or most of them, would have returned to his fishing boat and said, "Well so much for that hope of the future." That they didn't tells us that Jesus was a powerful person to deal with. And that He was more than that; He is the Son of God; God the Son; just Who He said.

It's not proof; it's evidence. Read the book, "Surprised by Joy." Then get Josh McDowell's book "Evidence That Demands An Answer."

These books won't prove anything; but they may start you who doubt to think again. You may remain of the same opinion as before; that's your right. But do give yourselves the chance to find out with the proper references in hand; books written by other than those who penned the Bible. Those who are contemporaries of us and have faced the same problems with belief as so many do.

and thom,while I'm at the pc and because your views are so similar to others in this debate, may I just say that an appeal to the unknowability of certain things is not really any kind of argument at all.There are not "things which other people see" but we don't. There are just things that other people believe-but we don't. To become a believer in these things we don't need proof.We can't have proof. There isn't any. We just change our minds. Revelation is a private thing. There's one thing I really don't understand. Why some people believe the things they do.

Blackstone, I had skipped you to state the above, but I think it may help you if you wish to know why I am a believer, to read the two suggested books. I have done so, although I already believed in Him. In the Trinity, which is pictured in an icon which is the coming-on picture, and the going-off picture on my computer. My oldest son, who is a Catholic priest, put it there for me last week. It was an icon I never liked, until I heard his Trinity Sunday sermon in my church (he celebrated at the request of our rector). He used that icon, which is mostly unfamiliar to Catholics, but described it in such a way that for the first time I actually "saw" it. (Icons are from the Eastern Orthodox churches primrily.)

Read the books, Blackstone; then you will have a better idea as to why I believe. They will neither harm you or convince you of anything, but they may start you to understand why some of us do believe in God, and in Christianity as the way to find Him. If you are really curious about it, read them.

Someone explained religion as man seeking God; I am sorry I can't go back and see who it was. But I was taught just that, and that Christianity is God's way of reaching down to us. It's not original; but I like it. So much love reaching out to us; hard for me to imagine turning away from that love, you see; there's that emptiness we must face without it.

You could then read "The C.S.Lewis Hoax" by Kathryn Lindskoog , Blackstone .An astonishing research.

But, again Snowden, that's what you, and I must say many,many others, believe. And it's wonderful that you have such faith in what you believe, but it is not what everyone believes. Why do you think that the rest of us have never contemplated this subject before, why do you think your books would make us "start to think"? We all have lived quite a long enough time to have done plenty of thinking. I respect what your opinions are, it's just not what everyone else in the world believes. And I don't at all feel the "emptiness" you speak of. I want to repeat that I respect your opinions. You have every right to have and express your own opinions, as I do mine, but I can guarantee everyone who is writing here that this will never be resolved and not a one of us will change our minds.

Thats right Blackstone. Why should you ..you are in denial.. When I scroll back I see the questions. Where will you be when you die? Was Jesus a good man a crook or a nutter? or the son of God?
Did he exist? did any history really happen? Is the Earth flat ..did people really walk on the moon?
Answer these and I will have some more questions for you?

Living a "good" life is not the way to God..there is only one way to God and that is believing in Jesus(accepting him as your own personal savior) God (the father) and the holy spirit. very sadly the non believers will not have the everlasting life that the believer will have. Now before anyone attacks me, this is what the Bible says.not me.altho I believe it. so then if God tells us that he has a wonderful everlasting life for all his children (the ones that believe in him, trust him and worship him) why wouldn,t we, who believe what God tells us in the bible want to tell others about him. I guess that is why christians sometimes seem "pushy". Please tell me how can anyone (that does not believe and trust in God,s promise to us ) have a real peace of mind? It is impossible to have a serene, calm feeling about death when in fact you do not know anything about it. where do you go? what will it be like? will I get to heaven?? Questions I am sure a non believing person has to ask themselves..right or wrong guys and gals?? Halfpint, you are absolutely correct. Nothing is worse than the loss of a child. but people, that is why I can be happy, contented, and yes at peace because I do know where my child has gone. now please don,t take this posting as anything different than me, wanting people I care about, to have the same peace that I have found thru knowing Jesus. God cares and I care and I know other believers care about your salvation. but truly, if you are happy with what you believe in your heart then by all means be happy with that. bones, I particularly like the way you said respectably disagree. when I was at my very lowest ,waiting for marla( my daughter) to get back into recovery from open heart surgery, I know that it wasn,t me carrying myself it was Jesus carrying me. How very fortunate I am being blessed with a special child to show me the way. what she gave me I want to pass on to you, and really it is so simple

Halfpint, I am very sorry for the loss of your grandson and for his family. when I was told that time is the best healer, I didn,t believe it, but it really is. Instead of the horrid feeling inside, that you think will never go away, you will have special wonderful memories in time. elk, my sympathy to you also. you have suffered several losses and I am very sorry. Bones, you are hurting and rightfully so, I think of you often and I do pray for you because you are my friend and I do care. I know how helpless the feeling is when you can do nothing medically for a loved one. My dad passed away from cancer and it was a long, sad time for us all. and my sweet little mother had a serious stroke and how helpless you do feel, when you can,t make them well. and I am sure there are many other people here that are suffering also. I don,t want to sound like a preacher and I have posted my thoughts (boy, have I....longgg) but truly God is there and He does care....

Thank you cat you really made my day better, because i know some one does care.bones you have my sympthy.

Well, it boils down to none of us knowing for sure until we die. Guess I'll be in that place called "limbo" or "just dead", the place where non-believers go. "Home of the Heathens". Let me emphasize though that I'm not choosing and living the good life in order to find God, I'm living the good life because that's how I want to live, how I want to be, how I want to be to others, how I want to be remembered. I have to look myself in the mirror, and I never want to be ashamed to look. Again, I've said it all in messages past, but I respect the fact that you want to follow your own paths. I'd like to bow out of this conversation now, but thanks for giving me the chance again to say what I think.

"Please tell me how can anyone (that does not believe and trust in God,s promise to us ) have a real peace of mind? It is impossible to have a serene, calm feeling about death when in fact you do not know anything about it. "

Nobody knows anything about it and I feel serene about death at the moment because we all must die. I have seen dead people and my observations are that they were insensate, so that seems acceptable.I have never observed any evidence of immortality and am not fearful enough of death to need to force myself to believe in an afterlife.Never , for a second ,have I accepted the idea of a "heaven"
I understand and am sympatheic toward those who fear death and need reassurance.

My heart goes out to all you dear people in your suffering. I do believe in God . I believe we find God in each other. I believe our mission is the quality of our presence wherever we are. I believe whatever awaits us is wonderful. No amount of debate will convince anyone either way. I believe God has no hands but ours. I believe we are called to be on earth the heart of God for others. To do what we can for those who touch our lives and leave the rest to God. Bless you all. Phillyfoal.

Ian, you say no one knows anything about death. you are absolutely wrong in that statement. we believers know from reading God,s word what to expect in dying. first off we will never die. our spirit will live forever. the bible tells the believer the day one dies is better than the day he is born. we will have an eternal home. There is a judgement day and there is a heaven and there is a hell so the bible tells me. we will see our loved ones and we will see Jesus and there will be no tears in heaven and no suffering. death to a christian is going home. It will be a place free from fears and insecurities. The bible teaches us to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. you see Jesus did die and did come back and has told us these things and many more things of what death is all about. I did not force myself to believe in a afterlife it was given to me because I believed. I know it is hard to understand because we are on opposite ends here but just wanted to let you know that the afterlife is not the unknown to believers.and to anyone who seeks answers

First I would like to address the question of proof. If you have proof, then you don't need faith and faith as I understand it, is what its all about. Is there only heaven or hell ?
I don't want to believe that . I hope that if hereafter does exist, that those of us who were good, but unsure of what is to come, will find a midplace which I think most of us are at now. I hate to see believing worn like a badge. I don't think the person who looks down on unbelievers is any better off than the unbeliever. He can't do that with out judging. I was taught judging is a sin.

Cat,
You offered no rationale to back up your post that I was " absolutely" wrong about knowledge of death.( Knowledge, in this context, is a powerful word)
I do not offer proof of my position other than my personal observations of others deaths. I am glad you get consolation from your readings , that's fine.
I don't want to change or question people's various ways of navigating through life, ( unless they are harmful to others)however bizarre they seem to me. Sometimes I get irritated with those who do when they are too insistent they are the only ones who are on the right road.

Blackstone,
To become a believer in anything is acceptance. If you don't need proof, or as you say, "can't have proof", it is because you won't allow yourself proof.
I'm sure you will agree, what causes us to change our mind is our acceptance of one thing over another.
I agree that revelation is a private thing, that private thing being, our acceptance, or denial, of the things which are revealed to us.
You will understand why some people believe the things they do, when you admit to yourself why you believe the things you do.

Bones,
You guarantee everyone who is writing here that this subject will never be resolved and not a one of us will change our minds.
It is my belief that all of us will change our minds, to some degree, many times.
Without change there can be progress, nothing would evolve.
Everything must change, and so our thoughts, ideas and beliefs.

I'm grateful for the additions to my reading list but I do have a fair number of books from my days studying the philosophy of religion thanks and think I have a reasonable grasp of the topic. And thom, I'm afraid you have gone all drfox with the "won't allow yourself proof" comment. We both know I hope what proof means in a normal context,say in a court, where proof is crucial to a judgement of the facts. As judges always point out to juries, they are to be the judges of the facts and they will have the evidence, the proofs, to guide them. There is no proof, in this sense, of the existence of God. There are,mainly, the statements of those who claim to have witnessed God in some private revelatory way. To take this as proof of the existence of God is the equivalent of believing a spiritualist who tells us who committed a crime by going to her spirit guides. Laughed out of court. It may be I have a different,more rigourous, demand of what proof should be. What, apart from the religious context, do we think of people who claim to have visions, revelations, hear voices, believe themselves to be specially chosen and the rest of it? And how much credence do we give to their claims? And why should it be different for the religious? No, the world goes on without your God or any of the myriad others there are and have been. My own feeling is that it is you who are benighted, in the dark, at least in this aspect of your life, but as long as your belief harms no one what does it matter? I have no wish to convert but I am keen to argue for rationality here. But not so much as to keep on repeating myself so I'll leave this particular strand until it metamorphoses into something else like they all seem to.

NAif rocky
if i didnt know better , i would think you are elig. are you???

having said that.
are facts really facts?
is proof really proof?

take care
elk

You sound like O.J's lawyers, Elkourie

gosh el, I wish I could answer. but I don't know what elig. means. sorry.

not often i get such a rare compliment.
weeellllll,,,,,,,,, THANK YOU KATO!!
take care
elk

E.Liggett is THE smartest MAN on the forums!!!

Rocky are you naif rocky, aka Blackstone?????

3 and the same. at least. fora.to be pernickety.

Elk amoorah; you make more sense than a lot of us.

Blackstone, I won't try to convince you of anything; I am not a preacher. But if you have studied theology or philosophy, indeed if you have read the Bible, you are responsible for the Gospel. Whether or not you accept what it says is up to you. I hope you will or do believe, and one day when I am hopefully in Paradise, I hope you will come to me and say, "Hey! I know you. I called myself Blackstone in those forums, and you were Snowden. Remember? Boy, did I have you guessing."

No, my belief harms no one. Yours, or your lack, hurts only one person; and that only if you are sincerely denying God. If you are looking for proof, don't look here. Proof is all around you; just ask God to show you. I cannot do it for you; like Cat, and Elkouri, and the other believers in here, I can only pray that the scales fall from your eyes. Because my own belief has been tested; and I managed to cling to it. We all have trials; some of us maintain a faith in God and see that the world is fallen and that what happens to us and those around us is our fault. We sin, and we forget to repent or just don't bother. But faith is what we ultimately need. And it's not easy, Blackstone. There are times when we have to ask for help with it, and since we cannot and will not see God while we walk this earth, He can only answer when we open our hearts and minds and let Him in.

What you believe is what you yourself have faith in. Is it yourself? Is it in something other than God? That's your decision. Belief, whether or not you like Thom's remarks, is a decision you make. To believe and what to believe. We can tell you what, even why, we believe; but you must make the decision. We cannot do it for you.

Blackstone..Clearly you are an academic..No doubt teaching others..
We are aware, of the definition of those that teach, if you can't do... you teach.
Blackstone...The Lord Chief Justice of England has said, "there is sufficient evidence now, that Jesus not only said what he was reported to have said, but he came back to life.. after death."
I quote you.."my feeling is...etc" Feelings? Come on, I prefer the proof of facts and logic.
You have fallen into the trap of not seeing the woods for the trees.
To put it bluntly..You are not very bright!
My guess is that you will not respond to this..

My what a rude person you are Colin. Did your budgie die? Is there some excuse for your attitude? Drfox did not die in vain. You are his child. Not teaching.And certainly not you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
Apart from Josephus....but what's the point of continuing? You clearly need no instruction. In anything. Hope it made you feel better but it wasn't exactly turning the other cheek. Or are the teachings not to your taste?

Blackstone, I do believe you could be E.Liggett, my old and beloved adversary; Elk seems to have it right. Josephus? Give us a break!

Aren't you forgetting that there are three Gospels written by men who walked and talked with Jesus for three years, and wrote it down? And what of the Epistles of James, Peter, John? Just because you don't want to accept their books, you want us to believe that they are not as believable as Josephus? History records Peter's death in Rome, as well as that of Paul and a good many others. John lived in Turkey for a number of years taking care of Mary as he taught Christianity there. It's recorded, Blackie; it's all on record. Get a key for the Vatican Library if you can't find a Bible. But know in your heart that men don't do what those men did for a phoney, a liar or a crazy man.

Come on, man; you can do better!

"Colin'I must also take exception to your silly response and peculiar rage against a well written , calm , erudite post. If that is the best reponse you can make in reply why on earth choose to openly display such weakness?

Snowden..all distant, dubious history(maybe)..what have you to show lately?
Talking of the Vatican, did you all know that the Roman Catholic Church has special privilege in the UN? The Vatican has used its power there to condemn the distribution of emergency contraceptives to women raped in the Bosnia conflict, and to block safer sex initiatives (including the distribution of condoms to people with AIDS in Africa). So, the Roman Catholic Church is influencing health care policy for people all over the world .
Why should one religion have such access to world crisis decision makers?...or ANY religion?

Snowden
just remember i always loved elig, and still do in A special caring way and he felt the same for me.
naif rocky
you cant see a compliment when you get one.


one more time
thats not nice putting down another's beliefs.
take care
elk

No I can't Snowden, not against you. This appears to be an old argument you have had with someone else.I don't want to raise the dead of previous altercations with non-believers.For my own part, the scattered early references by Roman and Greek writers to the strange Eastern religion are not proof of an unique person, Jesus, although they are clearly evidence of a cult based on quasi-historical personages and connected in some way with the Essenes. I am reminded of King Arthur and the stories of Geoffrey of Monmouth or tales of Robin Hood. I find this sterile country for discussion and unless some new evidence is forthcoming would prefer not to get involved. Nothing useful will emerge. I would like to leave it there. Sorry.

Not like me to let a compliment pass without giving it a big hello. So HELLO. And thank you for mistaking me for someone else. I'm much better looking. And younger.

H.J. Although a Catholic, I am not responsible for what is done by or at the Vatican; for which I am thankful. I believe the present Pope is a Godly and good man, which certainly has not always been the case! I don't agree with everything he thinks or does; perhaps that makes me a bad Catholic, but there are some things I do not agree with him about.

But Roman Catholic is a denomination, not a religion, although I think a lot of Catholics miscall it that, so I can't blame you for the use of that word.

Blackstone; I can see now that you are better looking than E.Lig., but we loved him, so don't feel that we are insulting you by wondering.... And I thank you for the (I think!) implied compliment. It is all distant history to us, but really only yesterday, and quite well documented. It surprises me how well documented; but I have no reason to doubt my sons, all of whom have made Christianity their life study. Each has ended up in a separate denomination, but all the same religion. They have taught me a whole lot more, and of more importance, than I could ever have taught them.

he is 58 naive rocky

and hellooooooooooo back.
take care
elk

i was comparing your brilliance.
juuuuust love brilliant men

Mr Blackstone. Who me rude..Yes may be ..but correct.?
You were very happy to give it out on earlier posts to others. But no can't take.
Mr Blackstone.. it is MR?
Religious philosophy..That figures.. I would hazard a guess that
1..You have a beard.
2.. You have spent your life in front of our impressionable young people spouting forth you "intelligence" with what amounts to misguided information and in turn setting our Children on a path to bewilderment.
3...You have accumulated "knowledge" but Sir, you are missing the point of what Jesus was on earth for. It is called at best Denial..
Our Tertiary Institutions are full of people such as your self, with pontificating puffery and pomposity which had you spent your life in the real world doing real work you would have had knocked out of you long ago.
Your Office ..Study will be lined with framed photographs of yourself...In your higher education regalia, which continually reminds you and others your higher and superior intelligence....
Your British ancestry would be obvious, or at least would be no further than one generation back.
You where brown corduroy trousers, smoke a pipe and...Well how accurate am I?
In short Sir ...you are not very bright..Your denial is your problem but others are better off with out the benefit or your sad pontifications. Sir..

And unrepentant too Colin. Not a very Christian attitude. Have you tried any anger management techniques? The caricature is just that, a caricature but I love the thought of you,red faced and stabbing at those poor innocent keys. Bilious and for what reason, I wonder?
Wasn't just philosophy. Did a history degree too. Just to annoy you even more. Started at 36 after 20 years of "real" work. Then went back to "real" work. Had a pair of cords about 15 years ago. As you say, where cords? You are making a prat of yourself here. Maybe you do it everywhere. But I don't like being sprayed by spittle from the foam-flecked mouth of raving fanatics. Shouldn't think anyone else here does either. Thought we had seen the last of them a day or so ago. Cheerio.

Boy, That drivel sure looks familiar. I sure Hope it not contagous, Colin

I just love the way all of you stick to the subject, {Go right to the top) a worn out subject, but it's fun to see all the egos displayed. That's more interesting than the subject. More please, I'm taking notes, so not too fast.. RJ

we not only stick to the subject, we stick to what we believe. and I agree rojo it is getting worn out.and really we are all saying what we first said! But has been interesting as we are finding out more about that person. now when I go into chat you know a little more about their history. that I like. my final comment here is. "I only have God,s word from the bible to back up my comments"

This topic will be on going when we are all dead and gone. For now why not just pray to who ever your "God" is for each other. The exisitance of God has been in question since the beginning of time,those of us who believe will never convince the "die hard doubters", so at this point all we can do is pray for them.Of course a few of the people who have responded to this topic might feel at home in , hotter climates we all must answer for ourselves.God will care for us all in his way.

Fran, it's 102 at the old ranch. Is that hot enough? .. RJ

No one can define what God is. We can only describe how we experience God. GBU all

the bible defines what God is philly. God is a spirit. God is love. God is just. God is divine. God is forgiving. God is all powerful.
God is holy. God is fair. God is kind. the list goes on and on. and yes you are right, we can describe how we have felt the holy spirit move us thru God, our father. this has been a most interesting topic and is most interesting reading the thoughts posted here. see you in chat philly!

Dear cat, I respectfully disagree. I believe that the bible describes how the writers experienced God in their lives. I agree this subject is most interesting reading. see you in chat and thanks for your reply.

Forget about religion, all it will do is confuse you! If you want to know if there is really a God, go directly to the source.
Ask Him,listen and watch for His answers!
He will tell you all you need to know and more.

Sense of humor????? GOD!!!!!!! You bet your life!
HE CREATED US.
We are a laugh a minute.

The study of history will further justify the theory that religion is a form of insanity. No sane and healthy minds could have waged the bloody religious wars and crusades where the conquered were slaughtered, men, women, and children, even infants, all were put to the sword simply because they were "infidels" or "heretics." The dungeons and torture chambers of the Holy Inquisition could not have been run by sane and healthy minds. And it had to be the insane mind, the religious mind, that would tie a woman to a stake, pile wood and fagots around her and burn her alive for the impossible crime of being a witch. No sane person could read of the horrors, rape and slaughter in a savage book and call that book "the word of God." And the Jesus myth, about a god who must become a man and be murdered before he can forgive mankind, is the most insane of all.

H.J.

Being a christian, sometimes i wonder, and i believe god even forgives us for tHat!
take care
elk

having said that,
one more time!!!
i would rather believe in jesus and be wrong then not believe in jesus and be wrong. eternity is a long time to spend in the wrong place.

Right place? Wrong place? Whatever. One more time for me too elk. I would rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Eternity? Basically I'm a good person. That's all I care about. Trying to be good, and for the most part loving and caring. If there is a God, and She doesn't see that, and I end up in the wrong place, because I didn't follow Her rules to the letter, oh well. I would like to think that if there is a God, that She could look past all that. You know, "Forgiving." .. RJ

RoJo, they won't let up on us, and darned if we don't come right back to answer "one more time". Preach on, Believers, and I hope you end up where you deserve to be. The operative word is "deserve".

If you were not looking for answers, you wouldn't keep coming back. The answers are not going to come from a message board. They can only come from God who loves you. Ask Him.

Nope, not looking for answers. It's the rest of you who can't let it rest.

Why do you return to this forum then?
Why not just let it fade away?

Pearl, I've been coming to this discussion board for several months now. What you may not understand is that this whole topic about God has been going on and on and on. Read the first bunch, not just these most recent messages. I've attempted several times to just "let it fade away" but darned if someone doesn't address me directly about something I said long ago. This topic is surely not the only one I've added my two cents to. I've also tried very hard to be respectful in my posts, letting others own their opinions, but no one will accept my opinion as just that, my opinion. Oh, well, too bad. So be it. Happy Church Day.

And beside that, everyone's trying to save me, and well, there's no saving me.

Bones, never, I beg you! never say we should end up where we "deserve" to be! We Christians know we are sinners; we know where we "deserve to be," and that, my dear friend, is exactly where we do not want to be! That is why we accept, even cling to Jesus! He, and He alone, is our hope of not getting what we deserve.

Oh, I know it's a "sound good" in advertising, but in reality it is hell. Really!

I am a sinner; I know it, I admit it, I even admit, God help me, that I often enjoy sinning. But deep inside it hurts, and I go running back to my Lord for forgiveness. When my heart plays truant and goes looking for greener fields, as most hearts do one way and/or another, I have to keep check on it and try to keep it in the pasture with my Shepherd. And sometimes He has to break my leg and carry me a while, as Mid East shepherds to when a lamb will not stay with the flock.

Please, friend; not what I "deserve." I will beg God's grace in preference to that! I beg God's grace in any event.

Okay, Snowden, that was not my intention to scare the heck out of you! What I meant is that if you've lived how you believe you're supposed to be living, then I hope you get to where you think you would like to be. A matter of semantics. With all that said, I still am not worried because if I'm wrong about all this, I know I haven't sinned enough to warrant Hell.

Bones, I know; I never thought for a minute you meant to scare me. But I appreciate you saying so. I guess where I end up will depend on when, where and how I die; hopefully as I leave church just after Mass! Then I'll be safest.

Sinning or not sinning isn't the answer, though, Bones. You know us and how we believe about that. We all sin; degree isn't important. Jesus is. But that's enough; I wish you could agree with me on that. Maybe some day.... well, who knows? You just keep an open mind; I think the heart is pure. That ain't bad, Bones; not bad at all. It may be all that matters in most cases.

I have more questions than answers, as you know.

Bones,
It would be easy to believe you are God because of the postings such as, "I know I haven't sinned enough to warrant Hell."
And it is easy to continue my search for the truth.
Up to this point I've always thought "GOD" was the only one who would know, "who had sinned enough to warrant Hell."
Wisdom is elusive!

Done............I'm done with this topic. I'm just me, that's all.

those who don't know say and those who know don't say . Can't remember who said that first . sounds good to me

Part 1
Is there a GOD ? for many there is and the concept works for them. For me I’m more
along the lines of an evolutionist. Science as it uncovers the mystery of life isn’t fool
proof but continues to work at discovering our origin and is for the most part in conflict
with the Bible.I wasn’t always interested in mans beginning. When I was young I went to
a Methodist church and participated in all the rituals like singing, head bowing and
listening to the sermons. This was comfortable at that age and made sense because I was
obeying my parents. Then a terrible thing happened I began thinking for myself. For
example I thought about the size of the ark being 450 ft long 75 ft wide and 45 ft high.
That is 150 ft longer than a football field a little wider and about 15 rows of seats high.
Then I imagined putting 9 female and 9 male of every living thing on board. Managing
all that makes me suspicious considering the need for individual space for animals in
Zoos.
As I read some more about the earth being covered with water until every living thing
NOT on the ark died. But in seven days after the rain stops a dove returns with an olive
leaf, I thought hmmmm Miracle Grow to the max on that trick.

Part 2
I guess the most difficult for me to accept now is the convenient interpretation of the
bible. People (good Christians) cite “Thou Shalt Not Kill” people jump on this but fail to
go further and read what you are supposed to do if someone has killed. This is the bibles
commandment.
A] For General Public
EXODUS 21:12
He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.
B] For Family members
EXODUS 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
Parting thought. Do people believe they are following GODS plan by prolonging life with
medical intervention or is it contrary to GODS plan? If prolonging life is OK and
recognized as progress then why isn’t human cloning progress?
I am not anti Christian if what you believe works for you then by all means enjoy the
feeling. I happen to think I live I enjoy what I can I die end of story.

Thought I would investigate this topic. It was like being at community buffet, where everyone brings their own covered dish for others to try. Made to the end -- Exodus how appropriate. :>)

Thanks everyone! Be well, TC

You've got to admit it's been interesting. Good analogy TC. And we're still friends!

Tiger, it's been quite a buffet; and Bones, I love your forthright way of stating what you believe.

I realize that I come on a bit strong sometimes; it's really not intentional. Just that the only thing I am sure of in life is that I need the belief I have; and that others need to be allowed to believe what they believe. Ah, but that is the thing I have had so much trouble realizing!

I love you all; and I'm not cheapening the word here. You are a wonderful group who have let me run off at the mouth without taking umbrage. God grant me the ability to go more gently, and love you more deeply!

Thanks for letting me spout off as I do without kicking me!

Ted, you are a favorite of mine, and I hope you will remain a friend. I enjoy discussing things with you.

Sandman may I say with respect, the bible is a library of books written by many authors , each trying to describe how he/she experienced God and often speaking to a particular group of people in a particular time. Bible stories are impressionist paintings not portraits. The Gospels are not biographies.
You will always find discrepancies in the writings of the bible , ask yourself not "is this story true?". ask "what is the meaning of this story and what meaning has it for me." I wish you a meaningful and happy life .